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Unread 11-17-2014, 10:02 AM   #46
tileaz
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CX, my apologies for the wrong vernacular. The using of epoxy grout will inhibit the water from escaping the mortar, therefore delaying the latices from coalescing. Which in turn will and should delay foot or any other traffic. Ernie, thank you for your response it is hard to get context on the computer keyboard. Again, the questions raised at and before this meeting deal with the times in which traffic can be okayed to get on these thin tile installations. To Dave's point, this is one of the major reasons medium-bed is being redone, there is no standard or viable testing we have seen as it pertains to shrinkage.Why is shrinkage so important to this install? Because the tile manufacturers floated the idea they want no more than 1/64 of an inch maximum lippage! Half the thickness of a credit card. Ernie, the reason installers are afraid of the "monster" is we are the test rats as all of the homework for this installation has not been done. Tile contractors are the first people to be called if there is a failure, even if it is not our issue. It still will take time and money to settle a dispute, even if that dispute is not the tile contractor's fault. Again, we can develop a standard for this material but I feel as though there has to be a size limitation, that is a question I am hoping to get a feel for on this forum. When we asked the contractors at this and other meetings, 1/2 x 1 and 1 x 1 meter seemed to be the most comfortable to them. Is this true? I was hoping for feedback in that direction as well.
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Unread 11-17-2014, 11:30 AM   #47
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My previous post was concerning standard Portland cement tile mortars. Rapid Setting mortars are composed of different cement materials that have a different curing rate. Typically a rapid setting will cure enough and build strength quickly enough to allow the installer to grout in a few hours and allow light traffic the next day (in some cases sooner).

Exposure to water, as in a shower, is acceptable in 3 days with most cement based mortars. Pools should not be filled in less than 14 days; to allow the assembly to come to equilibrium and support the weight of the water in the pool that can create movement in the assembly.
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Unread 11-17-2014, 12:53 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Why is shrinkage so important to this install? Because the tile manufacturers floated the idea they want no more than 1/64 of an inch maximum lippage!
Lippage is not the key issue of shrinkage, James.
Warpage is the critical factor to shrinkage.

When enough shrinkage occurs to warp and/or hence "crack" a typical tile, a small replacement of the tile is needed. If this occurs with a very large tile, the replacement starts getting much more involved, detailed and costly.

By reducing the thickness of the porcelain, a lower tolerance to this stress exists, requiring more awareness of potential shrinkage.

My concern stems from the so called "fast curing", products.
Cured to "foot traffic" is not, "cured to shrinkage".


Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Ernie, the reason installers are afraid of the "monster" is we are the test rats as all of the homework for this installation has not been done.
That is not a fair statement, IMO.
Hundreds of people are working individually and collectively in all areas of our industry, in an attempt to properly and adequately, bring this exciting technology to market.

I am left to assume by "Homework", you mean that standards have not yet been written. That is a debate in itself as to which should come first, standards or case studies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Tile contractors are the first people to be called if there is a failure, even if it is not our issue. It still will take time and money to settle a dispute, even if that dispute is not the tile contractor's fault.
Unfortunately, you are all too correct there, James.
My only safeguard for that is, "Know you manufacturers" and know them well; but still get it in writing.

As per size of material: smaller is easier, without a doubt.
Easier to handle, and less attention needed for particulars and to details.

To me at least, that is asking the industry to limit a product, in this case size of a product, based on the concept that such a product or size, CAN NOT be installed properly. That choice should be left to the contractor, not a committee, IMO.
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Unread 11-17-2014, 01:26 PM   #49
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Ernie,
The committees are in place to protect the contractor. Too many of these installations are being done and they are all case studies as past tense. The committee is merely making sure there are standards that are going to make these installations successful. Contractors are on their own on what they install and how. Too many guys are given incorrect procedures and continue to forge ahead due to pressure or assurance everything will work itself out. These committees continue to meet to give the contractors as much information to have successful installations. You should try to attend one to see how it functions. John Cox
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Unread 11-17-2014, 02:03 PM   #50
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Ernie, Why did the manufacturers come to us(NTCA) to put out a position statement about 5.5? Was it because 3.5 was going so well on the floors? I think not. Who took the brunt of the failures of 3.5 on the floor? The mfr's or the tile contractors? I can tell you that on a couple of failures we have seen and have documented, the tile contractor exceeded all ANSI standards for coverage. Even though the mortar manufacturer supplied the mortar at no charge the tile contractor still footed the bill for labor even though he did nothing wrong. You do not know the discussions between tile manufacturers and NTCA tile contractors, or the promises made to me by tile manufacturers about how they need to work hand-in-hand with tile contractors. Or we(mfrs) will roll this out conservatively, and rely on the installer expertise. None of this has happened. As John Cox said the committee I chair is a contractors committee with manufacture representation, and as the new President of the NTCA I am hoping to shine more light on industry standards, especially thin tile installation. IMO, the manufacturers came out with a product, put it on the market, and hoped for the best. As has been said, tile contractors can install this material and succeed, we have, but a minimum standard or method needs to be put in place or we will re-live the glass tile debacle years ago.
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Unread 11-17-2014, 02:20 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cox
The committee is merely making sure there are standards that are going to make these installations successful. Contractors are on their own on what they install and how. Too many guys are given incorrect procedures and continue to forge ahead due to pressure or assurance everything will work itself out.
How can you say, "The standards are going to make these installations successful"?
The contractor has to make the installation successful.

If the standard requires 95% coverage and 95% coverage is not obtained, "Is that the fault of the standard"?

Is it up to a committee to decide if 95% coverage can be obtained on a 1mx1m but rule that it Can Not be obtained on material more than 1mx1m hence limiting what sizes are sold?
Asking for a product to be limited in size does not suggest, "Contractors are on their own on what they install and how".

Who is handing out the incorrect procedures? Tile manufacturers? Setting Material Manufacturers? IMTEF? NTCA?

This is why I am an advocate of certification, to ensure the proper information is handed to the contractor, via hands on education and certification.

Correct me if I am wrong, but there have been guidelines established for proper installation, which are backed by warranties and are the foundation for the reduced thickness porcelain section, to be added as part of the ACT program.

Though I have attended committee meetings in the past, I see this as a far better forum for more real world input by those who handle the product.
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Unread 11-17-2014, 02:40 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Ernie, Why did the manufacturers come to us(NTCA) to put out a position statement about 5.5? Was it because 3.5 was going so well on the floors? I think not.
Which is why I started this conversation asking you about any failures of the 5.5mm, James. I was always concerned with the 3.5mm on floors, specifically coverage issues.
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Unread 11-17-2014, 03:27 PM   #53
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Ernie, it is great to be certified. But at the same time what about real world installations. There are a lot of unanswered questions. What is the rate of thermal expansion per 1x3 meter black porcelain on the west side of a building in the heat of the summer? Does it twist? What happens to the mortar if all of the moisture is not out of it before a freeze/thaw situation? We actually had a tile contractor calculate the minimum width of an expansion joint at proper intervals, the calculations were a minimum of 1/4 inch. How is that going to work with straight edge porcelain when the shore hardness of your sealant is 25? When that edge crushes, the tile contractor will get called first and pay money to fix the issue. Ernie, I want this material to succeed, just like you I appreciate your passion and the passion of others trying to make this work but we have to fully understand this product before we open the gates. Please note, I have seen a floor installation of 5.6 fail, who's fault? Yet to be determined.
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Unread 11-17-2014, 04:03 PM   #54
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James ,great questions from real world situations.

For an exterior installation of 3.5mm of 1mx3m tile I think best bet would be to use a system as the ventilated facades one . Once installed on a rack with the proper gap behind , the absorption and release of the heat should be quite balanced .
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Unread 11-17-2014, 05:42 PM   #55
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Sorry about the back and forth on thin tile. I would like to go back to the original idea about this thread. There are plenty of issues out in the tile installation world. One of them is visual inspections by a consultant, homeowner, GC and/or architect. I am trying to put together a statement just to start as it pertains to a standard for these type of inspections. My thought is again to start slowly and build consensus. My initial thought has to do with owners complaining about crooked joints, glazed/unglazed tile that shows at a certain time of day, "unusual veining" in glaze tile, things like that. I would like to start with a standard to look/judge these issues. Like for wall tile, the tile must be inspected from 36 inches straight on with light directly behind the inspector. The floor would be 72 inches directly overhead with light directly overhead. This would help with the magnifying glasses, the hands and knees approach and the looking at tile at 4 in the afternoon with that one shade or curtain open. The distance and lighting for wall tile comes directly out of the ANSI 137.1 book for inspecting defects in tile itself. I do some of these jobsite inspections and try to hold myself to these distances and lighting.
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Unread 11-17-2014, 06:04 PM   #56
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I think maybe 60 inches or less above the floor would be more realistic, James. Lot of our eyes ain't near six feet up, eh?
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Unread 11-17-2014, 06:39 PM   #57
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I have always argued a 5-5-5 rule for inspection on punch list. 5 foot up, 5 ft away, 5 seconds to look. If you don't find something in that time frame and distance move on!
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Unread 11-17-2014, 06:53 PM   #58
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I just want to point out a specific request from our community that may have got lost in the post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tileaz
...I feel as though there has to be a size limitation, that is a question I am hoping to get a feel for on this forum. ... 1/2 x 1 and 1 x 1 meter seemed to be the most comfortable [according to our feedback so far]. Is this true? I was hoping for feedback in that direction as well.
I know not everyone is using the thin tiles so that will limit the number of comments but if anyone has feedback- let's hear it!
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Unread 11-18-2014, 10:51 AM   #59
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I've never been a big floor tile guy, but I wouldn't even consider trying to set a 1M square tile, regardless the thickness. A 1/2x1M I might consider, but I'd set my personal limit at a 2x2-foot tile.

But I know y'all big guys wanna do tile lots bigger than that and I'm more than happy to let you. And would have been even back in my younger days.

I recognize that standards are gonna hafta be written for the much, much larger thin porcelain panels, but I'm in favor of separating them into an entirely different category. How to do that? I dunno.
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Unread 11-18-2014, 05:01 PM   #60
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Kevin, I like the idea of a time limit. CX, I never thought about separating them by size. Interesting idea.
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