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Unread 12-30-2013, 11:41 PM   #1
cx
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Welcome, Roger.

We'll leave your associated thread on its own until it becomes an issue here.
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Originally Posted by Roger
I don't have enough room to put another layer of wood sub flooring. I really don't know what to do...
What you need to do is recognize that you cannot have your new travertine floor and have it flush with your adjacent hardwood flooring. 'Least not if you want your travertine floor to last long enough to show your friends.

The absolute minimum subflooring you can add to what you have for a ceramic tile installation is nominal half-inch exterior glue plywood plus a tiling substrate of your choice, but that presumes your board subfloor is laid perpendicular to the floor joists, which yours are not. The MIA, governing body for natural stone tiles, requires a double layer of plywood or OSB for any natural stone tile installation, but will usually accept a board subfloor as the first layer. They are much less likely to accept that with your diagonal boards, though.

I would recommend you add nothing less than 5/8ths" plywood if your boards are in very good condition and well fastened. Then a tiling substrate of your choice and your tiles.

You'll need to make the necessary transition to your adjacent flooring, but transition to wood flooring is amongst the easiest to make.

You sure those joists are SYP or Doug Fir?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-31-2013, 09:41 AM   #2
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Single layer of 5/8ths" plywood over your existing, well fastened, board subfloor is my recommendation, whether you choose natural stone or ceramic tile, Roger.

Here is a good article on how best to install the second layer. I recommend you adapt as much of it as possible to your application.

If you don't know the joist material and grade, you might be short there, too, on the requirements for a natural stone installation.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-31-2013, 10:25 AM   #3
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Could he pull up the old floor (including the dimensional diagional subfloor), put down T&G 3/4" ply (glued and screwed) and utilize Ditra XL for his stone? IIRC, it won't be warrantied, but I think it's in the DITRA Installation Guidelines, IIRC. That's the only way I can see too keep existing floor level.

Otherwise, could do all that a lay in a lower layer of ply between the joists....
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Unread 12-31-2013, 11:10 AM   #4
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Perhaps you have a different set of guidelines from Schluter, Jason, but I believe mine still says you gotta have a double layer of plywood or OSB subflooring, regardless the joist spacing, under either the Ditra or Ditra XL. That would be their method D-W-S-13. If you've got something else, please do let us know.
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Unread 12-31-2013, 11:25 AM   #5
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See page 29 of the Handbook (mistakenly called it Guidelines earlier): www.schluter.com/media/DitraHandbook.pdf Pretty much the whole page is applicable. My take on it is, that one can do it with risk and it's not recommended and it won't be warrantied. It's better than some alternatives.

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Unread 12-31-2013, 11:32 AM   #6
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I dunno, Jason, seems to me that page 29 just reinforces my recommendation that Roger not try the single-layer subfloor with his travertine tiles. Travertine being the very weakest group of stone tile materials depicted in Schluter's test results on page 28.

But it's his house and his tile and his dinero and he can install whatever he wants over whatever he's willing to accept as a subfloor, eh?
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Unread 12-31-2013, 12:01 PM   #7
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Yup. I already typed it, but I deleted it before sending last message: People are going to do what they're going to do given their limitations. Those limitations are either physical constraints or limits in knowledge. We can educate, but I think he's in the physical constraint category.

You're right though, the travertine is the weakest ... I was just thinking stone in general to be honest with you.
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Unread 07-10-2014, 09:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger
Would it be okay to use the 3/4" hardwood that is currently on top of the sub floor for the 2nd sub floor instead of taking it up and putting down a second layer of sub flooring?
Unfortunately, no. While I'm sure the compression performance of the hardwood will exceed any plywood, it possesses nowhere near the lateral stiffness or stability the plywood provides and that your very soft travertine requires.

Last edited by PC7060; 07-11-2014 at 08:10 AM.
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Unread 07-10-2014, 10:34 PM   #9
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Roger, you've got a couple things working against you there. First, the hardwood flooring is too dimensionally unstable to install any tiling substrate directly over. No manufacturer of such substrates will condone such an installation. You must end up with plywood or OSB as your top layer, preferably the plywood, before you can install the tiling substrate.

Second, the nail-down hardwood flooring is installed such that it is intentionally allowed some movement to accommodate the known dimensional changes that will occur with seasonal or other interior environmental changes. There is almost certainly even a cleavage membrane of some sort between the hardwood and the subflooring. The hardwood is made to move. Ceramic tile doesn't like that.

Remove the hardwood, install some plywood, install a tiling substrate, install some tile.

Is your new "flooring system" to be a wood framed structure?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 07-11-2014, 08:17 AM   #10
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You need to provide a joist structure that meets the L/720 deflection requirement for natural stone tile and a double layer of plywood or OSB subflooring, the first layer of which should be nominal 3/4" T&G and I recommend the second layer be at least nominal 1/2" plywood installed according to the recommendations in this good article from our Liberry.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 07-11-2014, 10:14 AM   #11
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You're confusing some of us, Roger. We're now up to a subfloor that's nearly two inches thick, but I have no idea what you're measuring there. Is that the thickness of only the boards we see in the photo from below?

Your contractor wants to use Advantech over what?

What tiling substrate do you plan to use? The Advantech is fine material, but the surface is not the best for anything that requires bonding to it. I would recommend plywood instead for your second layer of subflooring.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 07-11-2014, 01:09 PM   #12
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I think at this point I'd stop and verify the suitability of those joists. If they're SYP or fir, you're gold. If not, you need to be able to address that problem first, as the subfloor problem then becomes secondary.

If you can't find out the grade and species of the joists, you can add some support from the below to shorten the span a couple of feet and solve that issue.
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