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Old 10-28-2015, 11:16 AM   #1
miss0033
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Neil's Bathroom Remodel

Hello all. I have learned at lot just by reading and lurking on here for awhile.

I am finally getting near the end of a 3-4 month bathroom gut talking little chunks at a time. We turned a jetted tub into a walk-in shower, took everything out down to the studs and are making it like new (in theory...)

I ran into a myriad of issues, a cut floor truss (cut by whomever installed the jetted tub, not me), a buried live electrical line, a previously overloaded circuit, a plumping leak to name a few.

At any rate I am in the process of tiling my Kerdi shower and have some concerns. I am about 10 hours of tiling in and dont yet have one wall complete. Also, I had a tile break off the wall last night and looking at it makes me concerned.

It is a natural stone (travertine) versallies pattern. I am using a 3/8" square notch trowel on the wall and back-troweling the tile with my 3/16" V-Notch trowel. (back troweling with 3/8" square seems like a whole lot of messy mud). When I push the tile on I move it around a bit and put quite a bit of weight into it. I usually have thinset creeping into my 1/16" joints as well that I need to clean up. Last night while tiling I stumbled a bit and ended up putting a shoulder into a tile and breaking it off the wall (it had set the night before). Based on what I see on the broken piece and on the wall, I could be severely lacking coverage...

I am also getting quite a bit of shrinkage along the edges. For instance the tile stops at an outside corner where the gyp board starts and when I push the tile on a bunch of thinset squeezes out so I run a shim along the edge to clean it up and make the edge flush. When I look at it 15-20 minutes later, I now have a gap at the edge (like thinset got sucked back underneath or something) and it looks like a lack of coverage at the edge.

I am using TEC full set plus un-modified thinset. It is the only unmodified I can easily access in my area. Several stores will not sell to me due to small quantities, no contractor's license, etc. I also started using the QEP LASH system, but as of last night will no longer be using it. Tuscan TLS is on order. Anything else you need to know that would be helpful?

Any recommendations moving forward for changing my process? This is my first real tile job. I don't count a kitchen backsplash I did as a real tile job (meant as a temporary aesthetic improvement until we rip out the kitchen in 5-10 years).

Also the vertical section of "missing tile" will be an accent tile. However my travertine is about 7/16" thick and the glass mosaic looks to be about 3/16" thick so I have 1/4" of thickness to make up. For the floor I am using the DITRA heat membrane. DITRA was not an option (24" o.c. joist spacing) and DITRA XL was prohibitively expensive as something like 250 SQ FT was minimum order from my place. So I bought sheets of DITRA Heat.

Frustrated and a little worried at this point, but hopeful I can still make this look great

I have a few photos attached of the things in question. As well as a few photos from other parts of the process. The old shower never leaked, right?
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Old 10-28-2015, 11:18 AM   #2
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Old 10-28-2015, 12:58 PM   #3
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Hello, Neil. Welcome to the forum.

From looking at the dried thinset on the back of the tile that you removed, although unintentionally, my suspicion is that you're missing one particular part of the installation. You can tell me if I'm off base on this.

When setting tile, whether on the wall or floor, it's important that you put a little dab of thinset on the wall, then use the flat side of your trowel to force that thinset into the wall, sort of a skim coat.

That makes a much better bond between the thinset on the back of the tile and the wall, as you're bonding wet, sticky thinset to wet, sticky thinset.

Without the "keying in" of the mortar, the bond is pretty weak. Think of it this way: If you spill a little thinset on your pants (not that I've ever done that before ) you can sometimes kinda peel it off if it hasn't gotten into the fabric threads. If you smear it into the fabric, good luck getting it off clean, right? Same difference when putting it on the wall.
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:42 PM   #4
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Kevin,

Thanks for the Reply, I had not been doing that to this point. I will start doing that.

Also pulling tiles off to check coverage is rather difficult, I have to use a paint can opener to pull it off typically and the coverage in the 2-3 I checked looked pretty good. It was also difficult to get the tile to sit right again. I try to place it, move it around a bit, twist and then really push hard and the tile sort of "farts" a little bit, I assume it is air escaping. Maybe I am pressing too hard and too much thinset is coming out?

When I laid the Kerdi-Line shower base it was not possible to lift it over the floor and check for coverage without destroying the styrofoam base.

Also found out my TLS would be a week out as they have to ship it as well. They have a Ramondi kit in stock, and it is about half the price of the TLS so I think I will be using Ramondi instead. I'd rather not lose a week of progress.
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Old 10-28-2015, 10:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
.....move it around a bit, twist and then really push hard and the tile sort of "farts" a little bit, I assume it is air escaping.
You're sure this is the tile making that noise, Neil?

You don't really need to check for coverage on every tile, you might just check one on each row, or if you see one that looks like it might not be bonded well.

To remove it, try sliding it to one side or the other, or up if possible, about half the width of the tile. When you do that, you're breaking that suction and the tile should come off fairly easily. It also keeps you from "vacuuming" the thinset up off the tile and wall, which is probably why you have so much trouble getting it back into place.
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Old 01-11-2016, 11:30 PM   #6
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Time for another check-in from one of the world's slowest home remodelers...

Thanks again for the advice Kevin, "keying-in", or "burning-in" as I have heard others call it now, really seemed to help both coverage and adhesion. And my tile farted less...

I have all the Tile in the shower up. A few notes/comments on that. The differing thickness between the travertine and the glass/slate accent was kind of a pain... I put a layer of Ditra (regular) up on the wall first, then the glass tile, but still ended up a bit short in some areas.

The recessed cubbies were also not much fun. I followed "The Floor Elf's" advice, but wish I would've thought it through a bit more.
http://floorelf.com/how-to-build-a-n...or-your-shower
I appreciate his site, and learned a lot from it, however I have a slightly different opinion of the cubbies. I cut the recessed to the size of the accent tile sheet, which I was fine with the size of. But the time I got the Kerdi and laid in there I had to trim the accent tile. Then I set it on the back and laid in the travertine sill, sides, and top and now the cubby is significantly smaller than the size of the accent tile. So much so that my wife's shampoo and conditioner bottles no longer fit... I don't blame him (and my 12oz Beer bottle still fits, albeit barely). I picked the size of the accent tile and didn't think it through as well as I should've. Also with the Versailles pattern, lining up joint lines becomes a little more difficult/tricky.

I have been trying to clean the excess thinset off the face of tiles and in the grout joints. Then I need to seal it. Speaking of sealer... Both places I bought tile from no longer carry the DuPont StoneTech series that is commonly recommended. They both mentioned it being purchased by Latticrete and them being unable to carry it. Both switched to More Surface Care products. Anyone use these before?

I laid the Ditra-Heat Membrane on the floor. It was once again difficult to achieve 100% coverage. The subfloor I ripped out was just shy of 7/8" thick (13/16? 25/32? 27/32?). Nobody, and I mean nobody, around me seemed to carry a match to it. So I installed 3/4" as it was as close as I could get. So there is a slight drop. Also, the 3/8" plywood installed over the top had some slight variation here and there. At any rate, with the latex modified thinset it seems to be stuck on the floor pretty good.

Can someone take a look at my WarmWire routing below and see if there are any issues? It appears I ran a little too close on the Sq Ft... I am 8" from the toe kick register in the vanity, and at least 3 nodes from anything else. The cable doesnt go under the toilet, but gets real close to the edge, however it is at least 8" from the flange. I assume this is all okay...

Is this location for the sensor probe okay? It is not at least 3 nodes away from the wire, but I dont think it needs to be... A second was not included in my "Everything you need" kit, so I will be ordering another to install as well.

WarmWire recommends modified thinset, but Ditra requires unmodified. The tile/ditra/kerdi place said to install with unmodified and dont turn it on for 30 days to be safe. WarmWire said to prefill the nodes with modified, let dry from 48 hours, then install tile with unmodified. I called back the tile place with this and they said that while they don't expressly say not to mix thinset types, they wouldn't themselves. In their experience, they also said, there seems to be a better bond when the tile is installed in 1 thinset application over Ditra, but no evidence to back it up other than "feeling." Thoughts from the experts?

Will be putting down a 5-3/4" x 23-7/8" faux wood plank, dark espresso color on the floor. Will be using that as a wall base as well. I assume that doesnt need to be sealed, right?

Going to be using TEC PowerGrout. In the shower do you recommend walls or floors first? Also, a grouted floor shouldnt be walked on for 48-72 hours correct? How about once I lay the tile on the main floor, same deal?

Also, we arent super thrilled with the edge of the travertine where it meets the wall and the outside corner of the shower. We will have a tan wall, tan travertine, and a stark white line of thin set. Should I remove some and caulk or grout this? Leave it alone? Other ideas? Saw pencils and things like that at the store when we bought the tile, but didn't really like them and I wasn't thinking about things like this at that time. See Photos.

That is all I can think of right now. Thanks again for all the help!
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Old 01-12-2016, 12:54 AM   #7
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I'm no pro - just wanted to say your shower is looking good! I'm a pretty slow remodeler too.

Also, PowerGrout is good stuff. I used it in my kitchen/dining/nook tile job 3-4 years ago. It has taken spills, winter salt/mud mess, dog pee and more and has not a single stain. Also, it hasn't chipped out even with the dog claws running on it.

I used four kids and my wife to help me get it in and cleaned fast since it is a bit finicky on the install, but once it is in the stuff is great (IMO).
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Old 02-16-2016, 10:40 AM   #8
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Getting this thing back on track. Finished grouting the shower. Don't think I did too bad. However, the bag said to mix the Full Bag to ensure color consistency... I mixed the 25 lbs and within about 20 minutes I had a nice anchor...

After that I purchased a couple 10 lb bags, dry mixed them together in a 5 gallon sealed bucket and measured out and mixed 5 lbs at a time. It went much better once I started doing that.

A few questions with some photos.

Photo #1, shows my multi-color grout job I am proud of (so far)!

Photo #2, My wife wanted me to "waterproof the floor" after originally saying no. The kerdi runs down the face of the curb and about 2 or 3 inches onto the floor (underneath the thinset and ditra-heat). I cannot get a 2" overlay on the sides of the curb now or the ditra heat. Should I hit the sides with some Kerdi-Fix and fill the gap in the floor with Kerdi-fix? (I already have a tube I cannot return, so it wouldn't add any cost). Other ideas? Or just not worry about it? Also, how do I water proof the ditra-heat edge around the toilet flange? I couldn't find any schluter information on that.

Photo #3 and #4, how do people typically treat where the tile ends on a flush wall and outside corners where tile meets drywall. I have thinset sometimes out to the edge and sometimes a gap. Should I use a dremel and clean out some thinset where necessary and grout this? Use flexible sealant? Too late to do any "pencils" or anything like that now.

Photo #5, I was installing the fixtures just to see what they would look like and I noticed water is going to run into my wall cavity!!!! Can I just add some grout here, or will I have a problem with a "cold joint"? Flexible sealant? I'd prefer not to spend the money on a new bag of grout here (I used it up) but want it to look good and perform well, so if that is the best option, I will do it.

Photo #6. I know all transitions "need" to have flexible sealant, but are shower niches small enough they aren't necessary? Should I have grouted this? Or do they recommend flexible sealant here as well.


Another question (might be more suitable for Pro's Hangout). I am cutting pieces for my floor and am providing a 1/4" gap around the entire perimeter. At cabinet toe kicks I will need to do something, haven't figured that out yet. Hard to get a gun in there to use flexible sealant, and custom cabinets will be hard stain to match... But anyway, on lots of commercial installs I have seen, by the department of health here in MN we are typically required to install a tile with an "Integral Cove Base" at the base of the wall that the floor tile butts up to. No flexible sealant or expansion joints here. What gives? How does this installation not crack all the time?

Thanks in advance for the help and advice. You guys have helped me get this far, I just need a little more, haha.
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Old 02-16-2016, 05:13 PM   #9
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Not much you can do to completely waterproof the floor at this point. You can squirt some silicone or kerdifix underneath the tile on the front of the curb and try to extend it out to the Kerdi you have going up the wall. I wouldn't count on it being 100% waterproof, though. Same for the toilet flange, just fill the cavity edges with silicone or kerdifix. Again, I don't have much hope that it will be truly waterproof.

Try to rake out that joint where thinset is showing, and fill the gap with a color-matched caulk or silicone. Those areas are typically addressed during layout, so not much else you can do with it now that your tile is set.

Does the trim plate for the valve have a seal on the back side of it? That should keep moisture from entering the wall.

The size of the area, such as a small niche, won't really make any difference. Standards call for those plane changes to be caulked. Having said that, I've always grouted the corners in Kerdi showers and never had a problem with it. That doesn't mean I never will, or that you never will. I use pre-formed niches, so they won't expand and contract to the degree that a custom-framed niche would.

You could use quarter round to cover that gap at the toe-kicks. I've never had a problem getting a caulk gun in there, although it does take some patience. If you can remove the board across the face of the toe-kick you can cut your tile a little closer, then rip the toe-kick down and replace it. It might be thick enough to cover that gap.

It helps if you number your questions when there are more than a couple.
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Old 02-17-2016, 01:56 PM   #10
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Thanks again Kevin.

I also highly doubt the floor will be "waterproof," but just going through the steps at this point. We are just worried about water penetration since the whole reason for this project is how badly the last shower leaked where pre-fab pan met the floor and wall tile and destroyed the wall and subfloor in spots.

I caulked inside and outside the shower last night and my wife walked in and said "Yuck, what the h*** is that ugly, shiny crap?!" I explained the deal with the silicone caulk, and she showed me all these pictures on pintrest, had 2 of her friends with newly built homes send her cell phone pictures of their showers and told me none of them had "that shiny crap". So i think those transitions outside the shower I am going to grout, but the inside of the shower will be caulked. I told her if I grout the inside of the shower then she is responsible for replacing the grout if/when it cracks and she scoffed at me, haha.

#1 Is there an easy way to rip out the silicone and get it off the tile easily so I can grout these outside corners?

I didn't like the look of the travertine pencil edging, and was told I could create my own corners/ends with travertine. So I really didn't think it through until it was up on the wall (i.e. too late). Also didn't care for the look of the schluter transition piece colors next to travertine, I want to hide my transitions, not accent them in this shower.

The transfer valve trim plate does have a gasket/seal on it, but there are spots where the grout does not come out far enough to "meet" the seal. I will probably try to take a better photo.

#2 Can I build-up/add grout here? Or is grout on top of grout a problem waiting to happen?

The niches are custom framed (wish I could re-do them now, but live and learn) so I caulked them as well last night. They don't look too bad as the joints are fairly small. Maybe, since I am grout those outside transitions, I will remove it and just grout here as well and leave the major corners caulked in the shower (floor/wall/bench/curb/etc.)...

I like the quarter round idea, just need to find a stain that is close enough to either the wood-look tile or cabinet color.
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Old 03-27-2016, 06:24 PM   #11
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Almost done with my project. A few final things needed. Just wanted to update some photos below and ask some final questions. Finishing up some trimwork with some shoe base on the toekicks, cutting the vent in the toekick as well. Installing a new door slab, trim around the door, etc.

1) I used TEC Power grout (along with TEC Thinset) for everything. We used Raven (black) on the floor and it looked fantastic. However last night we washed it (water only) and the water ended up turning black, and it looked like, in parts of the floor, that we almost washed the color out of the grout. In spots it looks gray, and if I scrub at the floor I can even pull some sand out. Is this common? I am calling TEC on Monday because I am not real happy. The color enhancing sealer (StoneTech) did slightly change the color in my shower, even though they (TEC) say it isn't supposed to.

2) Also on the floor, I thought I had the tiles really clean, and as you can see in a couple spots some thinset is still stuck there. Are there any good options or does anyone have any ideas for removing this?

3) It has been 31 days since I laid the tile and 18 days since I grouted, am I safe to turn on the floor warming? SunTouch recommended modified thinset, but my DITRA membrane required unmodified. When I called they said unmodified was okay, but not to turn on the floor for 30 days. I turned it on just for 5 minutes to make sure it worked, and I think it did, but 5 minutes was obviously not enough time for temp to change. I guess I am asking more if the grout will be okay?

I learned a LOT and wish I would've done a couple things differently (isn't that every project though?), but I think it is turning out pretty good.
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Old 04-07-2016, 06:21 PM   #12
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So I installed the Warmwire 240V kit in my Ditra-Heat every 3-posts on center. The tile over it has been installed almost over 45 days and we finally turned it on over the weekend. We cannot get it to go higher than 3-4 degrees above room temp... We turned the thermostat all the way up and it constantly says heating, but will not get above 71 even after running for hours. In full disclosure, we have seen it get up to 73, but that was after back to back showers, my wife running her hair dryer while I showered, and probably was assisted by the whole room warming up. Outside of that, it has not gotten above 71.

I called Warm Your Floors because that is where I purchased it. They said it should've been installed 3 posts, then 2 posts, then 3, then 2. That is the layout they have the most success with, some even install it every 2 posts for "extra heat".

In page 13 of their installation manual it says to install per directions of the DITRA HEAT membrane, which is every three spaces. So how in the heck am I supposed to know to go 3 then 2 then 3 then 2, and wouldn't that go against their instructions and possibly void any warranties?

I have a hard time believing that being 1 post "off" every other room prevents it from warming more than 3-4 degrees above ambient air temp. That is what the sensor is reading anyway, and the floor itself still feels slightly cool to the touch like an un-heated ceramic floor would. I know it isnt a heated floor, and just a warm floor. However after spending $400 I feel I should notice a difference. My wife is really unhappy because she didn't want it in the first place, and I said trust me, you'll see how nice it is once it is installed and working.

Can that be possible? Can missing 1 post every other room render the floor heat useless? The margin cannot be that thin. If i shift it over slightly, you're telling me it will heat to 90degrees, but without that shift it will hardly heat anything.

Yes, I used the loud mouth, and yes I checked resistance before install, during install twice, after install, and after tile install. All fell within range, I can provide them if needed, but they are within the required parameters.

Really not happy. The almost $700 for the Ditra-Heat wire was a no go. I could barely squeeze the $400 warm wire in. I should've just saved my money altogether I guess.

Is there anything I can check/change at this point? in terms of the thermostat/wiring? I really doubt it, but feel like I should ask.
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Old 04-07-2016, 06:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Can missing 1 post every other room render the floor heat useless?
'Fraid at least one of us is not following that at all Neil.
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Old 04-07-2016, 07:47 PM   #14
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Sorry. I meant to say missing 1 post, every other ROW (not room).

I was told by a customer service rep from Warm your Floors that the warm wire should've been installed 3 posts apart then 2 posts, alternating when I called in this evening to talk to them.

However this is contradictory to the manual they sent me with it that stats to NEVER (in all caps) space the wires less than 2.5". 2 posts apart on the Ditra heat membrane is right around 2.33", which is less than 2.5". The manual also stats to install the wire according the the membrane (Prodeso, RPM, Ditra) instructions.

So I installed it not less than 2.5", and per the membrane instructions 3 posts, or about 3.5".

I feel like I followed the directions, but am not getting desired results. Maybe my expectations were too high. Not sure.
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:19 PM   #15
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So, trying to do some research on this.

I installed a 240v Warmwire on a standard single pole 20amp circuit (which also houses a single LED light in the shower and a GFCI outlet). When I explained my installation to Warm Your Floors the sales person, and stated I wasn't too keen on adding a new circuit to my breaker, they suggested getting the 240v system as it will draw less amps to achieve the same heat.

This circuit used to have a switch outlet that the pump for the now removed whirlpool tub. I assumed an LED light and a GFCI outlet was no problem, and the sales person assured me the 240v system was the way to go since 2 other small things were on that circuit and I would want it to draw less amperage to provide the same wattage.

Now I am reading that 240v items need to be installed on a double pole circuit (duh, right?). So it appears that this "simply" is my floor system is not "getting enough juice"? In this case I should probably call an electrician to install a new circuit on my breaker panel and run it to the floor heat. A cost I did not want to incur, but might now have to.

I am guessing now that this is more than likely the problem and I am an idiot for not figuring this out sooner and listen to advice from sales people who probably don't install this product and know even less about electrical than I do (which isn't much).

Could I have installed the 120v system on this circuit and been okay with an LED light and an outlet that is really only ever used to charge my razor?

This probably will not happen until next year as in using the other bathroom regularly while this was being remodeled, we found that one leaks where the tile floor meets the tub down to the floor below. So that is going to need to get fixed sooner than later.
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