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Unread 09-11-2016, 05:55 AM   #16
Simplyjames
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Wow. Just noticed the whole laying down 2x6 thing. I guess I assumed they were some sort of temporary blocking or something. No go. That can be tricky and I'd be hesitant to recommend anything without being there in person. Easy answer: raise everything to accommodate actual joists. Do you have a local Carpenter you trust?
One more thing, I remember seeing at Coverings a few years ago a pre made foam shower pan that was designed specifically for dropping into the subfloor by notching into the joists. This was possible because the pan itself had built-in metal mini girders running through it. I'm a little foggy on exactly what that was, but that's the idea. Unfortunately I don't remember manufacturer. Maybe this rings a bell for one of the pros here with a better memory...

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Unread 09-11-2016, 07:36 AM   #17
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Chris, you may be forced to undo the plumbing in that area to some degree in order to get the proper joist structure in place. How much room do you have to work with from the top of the adjacent joists top of whatever structure is below (ceiling, I'm guessing)?
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Unread 09-11-2016, 08:47 AM   #18
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Hi Chris,

So what are the dimensions of the boxed out joist area, both parallel and perpendicular to the common joists? I mean the total region, including whatever is on the other side of that wall.

What is supporting the ceiling below? What is below the missing joists, is it all one room?

The bathroom on the other side of the wall, what is its status? Properly fixing the floor framing would likely require access to its area of missing joists, either from above or below.

Cheers, Wayne
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Unread 09-11-2016, 12:37 PM   #19
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Kevin, the joists are all 2x8s, so there is limited room to work with, even without the questionable framing situation. Ceiling is below.

Wayne, I just re-measured and the distance is about 7.5 feet parallel to the joists and about 6 feet perpendicular (under the pipes wall) to the next intact joist.

The main drain stack which you can see in the pics runs through a 4 foot long (currently) non-load bearing wall. Otherwise, this area sits over an open concept the transition from kitchen to family room. The ceiling is attached in a couple of places to horizontal 2x4 or 2x6s.
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Unread 09-11-2016, 01:30 PM   #20
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Hi Chris,

It looks like the joistless area is about 4' wide in the pictured bathroom, so it sounds like the joistless area on the other side of the wall is about 2'.

One definite fix is to open up the whole area, likely from below, and cut out the piping as needed to install proper joists, then drill and reinforce those joists as needed to reconnect the plumbing pipes. That 4' long wall below that holds the drain stack might interfere somewhat.

If you made a careful diagram of all the fixed obstructions in the 7.5' long x 6' wide area (the drain and supply pipes), we might be able to help you figure out how to fit a couple joists in there with the minimum modification to the plumbing.

Since the joistless area is boxed in already you could run your new joists in either direction. Approximately 16" o.c. would be best, but 24" o.c. would be way better than what you have and perhaps sufficient. As the area in 6' x 7.5', that basically means 2 or 3 new joists running the long way, or 3 or 4 joists running the short way.

Cheers, Wayne
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Unread 09-11-2016, 07:43 PM   #21
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2x8 joists? A standard p-trap with a no-hub connected to your linear drain may not fit within that space. Better measure it all out first. Attach your linear drain to ptrap and set it on the floor. Measure up to The bottom of your drain, -3/4 of an inch for your sub floor and see if it all fits in there.

I just put a Kerdi round drain at a (True dimension) 1.5" x 8.75" joist bay and had to dig out the ceiling-below drywall all the way to the paper.

Save yourself all the hassles later by finding out if it fits now.
And regarding 2x lumber on the flat – just No.
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Unread 09-18-2016, 10:49 AM   #22
codude
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OK, here is a roughly to-scale diagram of the plumbing obstructions.

My goal is to avoid, if at all possible, tearing up the bathroom on the other side of the wall so that I retain one functional bathroom during this project. Consequently, I would prefer to run supports parallel to the house's existing joist layout. I can add one joist between the boxing and the 4" line for the toilet. I can also build a new mini 2x4x8 frame on top of the 1st floor exterior framing to support the shower (and the main stack wall.)

When I remodel the other bathroom, I can add a joist in front of the 4" toilet line as well- just trying to avoid doing that until this bathroom is done.

Thoughts? Thanks...
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Unread 09-18-2016, 11:38 AM   #23
wwhitney
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Hi Chris,

Are your toilet lines really 4" lines, and not 3" lines?

Even a 3" DWV pipe (3.5" outer diameter) won't fit prescriptively through a 2x8 joist--the allowable hole size is depth/3, which is about 2-7/16" for a 2x8. That's just enough for a 2" DWV pipe at 2-3/8" outer diameter.

Your proposed location for a new 2x8 joist is a good one, but I would be inclined to double it. The goal would be end up with a much smaller boxed out area, just enough to circumscribe the toilet drains, since the toilet drains can't pass through 2x8s. So you could run a new header (perpendicular joist) just on the outside wall side of the other bathroom toilet drain.

As for adding another joist on the other side of the other bathroom toilet drain, is there really that much open space between the other bathroom toilet and the next full length joist? Based on the 6' width of the boxed out area, I would think that the other bathroom toilet drain is pretty close to that full length joist already.

On those copper supply lines, if they are high enough in the joist bay, you could notch your new joists so that you can install them without cutting the copper lines. Assuming you can maneuver the joist into the space. The allowable notch depth is D/6, or 1-3/16" for a 2x8. If you do need to drill a holes for them, the hole is supposed to be 2" clear from the top of the joists.

As for accessing the floor system under the other bathroom, is opening up the ceiling below an option? It would probably be easier to fix this all at once, if that is possible.

That's it for now.

Cheers, Wayne
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Unread 10-12-2016, 02:15 PM   #24
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Thanks for all the input. I finally got around to ripping out the plumbing, and added a double joist parallel to the existing joist structure.

The problem I have now created is that the double joist sits basically in the middle of the shower bay, meaning that the centered outlet on my Tru-Gard linear drain now sits over the new joist. Tru-Gard does not make (that I can find) a linear drain with an offset outlet.

Unfortunately, I've already purchased the Tru-Gard kit with membrane, etc. What are the chances of a successful install using a Kerdi offset linear drain combined with everything else from the Tru-Gard kit? Clearly not my first choice, but this stuff isn't cheap, either...
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Unread 10-21-2016, 12:59 PM   #25
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Kerdi Drain with TruGard Membrane

Hi guys.

Looking for a solution to use an offset linear drain with the Tru-Gard system I already purchased. Tru-Gard only seems to make center-outlet linear drains, which interfere with the joists in my drain space.

Has anyone combined a Kerdi drain with Tru-Gard membrane (or something similar)?
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Unread 10-21-2016, 01:20 PM   #26
jadnashua
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Tru-Gard claims to be similar to the Kerdi system. It has been tested to the ANSI A118.10, but that may not be enough without the typical certifications required for its use everywhere.

They do call for the use of their sealant on seams and the drain assembly, similar to how Noble puts their system together.

It probably will work, but without the proper certifications, you might have issues with the building inspector, and you'll probably not have a warranty from either company. It appears that they do make their own line of linear drains, though, and then you'd only need to deal with one company if you had issues. I'd follow up on their certification documentation and with your local building inspector before committing or proceeding further.
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Unread 11-07-2016, 08:21 PM   #27
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So, vent question for my tub (2 in drain back to 4" main stack). Stack is over 5 feet away so venting that direction doesn't meet code.

Question is, can I tie in to the existing vent for the vanity sinks (yellow line) or do I need to head up into the attic (pink line) and put in another roof vent?
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Unread 11-13-2019, 11:56 PM   #28
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Ditra Heat Directly over TruGard Styrofoam Preslope

I'm remodeling a master bath as a wetroom with heated floors using Ditra. Floors 1/4" Hardie over 3/4" OSB.

The shower is curbless/barrier free using a Trugard (Kerdi-style) preslope tray to a linear drain at the threshold.

In order to minimize the height difference between the back of the shower (top of slope) and the wetroom floor on the other side of the shower glass, I'm wondering if it is acceptable or advisable to use Ditra directly on top of the styrofoam preslope tray, as opposed to Ditra over cement board over styrofoam.

Not sure if it makes a difference, but the Trugard system is really just styrofoam, without a paper/cardboard facing.
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Unread 11-14-2019, 07:17 AM   #29
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Welcome back, Chris.

If the Trugard tray is just naked foam, what are their instructions for installing and waterproofing it, and tying the waterproofing into their drain assembly?

Off the top of my head it seems you could use Ditra Heat mat right on toppa the foam - something has to go on it, but I'd want to check with them.
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Unread 11-14-2019, 09:09 AM   #30
Kman
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I think there's a mesh on the foam that helps with the bonding.
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