Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 11-14-2019, 02:50 PM   #16
MobileMarch567
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 13
Yeah, I was afraid that might be the issue...

To start over, should I trash the current pan liner & scrape off as much silicone as I can, then just re-do the liner placement with a new liner & fresh silicone?
__________________
Bill
MobileMarch567 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-14-2019, 04:25 PM   #17
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 89,226
Shouldn't need to replace the liner unless you think you may have damaged it in the installation/removal processes, Bill. Lifting it off the drain, ensuring it's clean around the drain portion on the bottom, ensuring the bottom drain flange is also clean, and reinstalling it properly might work out OK.

The guy who was there for the installation and removal would be the best guy to evaluate the potential for re-use versus replacement, eh?

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2019, 08:51 AM   #18
MobileMarch567
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 13
shower mud is crumbly!

Good morning all! I finished my shower mud and its been drying for the past 48 hours. However, it crumbles and breaks apart in several places if I press down on it with my finger. Other parts feel much more solid.

My plan was to vacuum/sweep up the loose parts, then replace them with more mud. The fresh mud will mostly likely be less than 1.5" thick, but it will be on top of the existing mud, so the total thickness of new mud + old mud will be minimum 1.5"

Would this work ok?

(in the pic, ignore the wet section in the lower left, i just spilled some water)
Attached Images
 
__________________
Bill
MobileMarch567 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2019, 09:16 AM   #19
Houston Remodeler
Pondering retirement daily

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Houston Remodeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 28,173
You should be fine as long as its well bonded. You're looking for compressive strength. Not sheer strength
__________________
Paul1

For when DIY isn't such a good idea...
Houston TX area Kitchen & Bath Remodeling


http://CabotAndRowe.com
Houston Remodeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-31-2019, 12:12 PM   #20
MobileMarch567
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 13
Update-Thank you!

I scrapped off as much of the mud as I could and attached a pic with the result...I think its obvious where I packed it down best, lol...could I still put fresh mud over this? Its about 1" thick at the deepest 'valleys'
Attached Images
 
__________________
Bill
MobileMarch567 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-31-2019, 09:34 PM   #21
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 89,226
Bill, for that top mud bed you really wanna remove it all and start over. That type of shower receptor construction is designed for the mud bed to be consistently porous and uniform in thickness to function properly. Trying to bond new mud to old using thinset mortar will disrupt that.

I'd also very strongly recommend you divest yourself of those plastic divider strips in your top mud bed. You can get away with nearly anything in the pre-slope, but you don't need any plastic strips in your final mud to tell the mud or/and tile surface where to crack or separate. And those plastic strips prevent you from having the consistent thickness from drain to perimeter of a minimum of 1 1/2" of mud as required by tile industry standards. They're a bad idea whose time has long passed.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2020, 11:54 AM   #22
MobileMarch567
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 13
Still getting "crumbly deck mud", what am I doing wrong?

Thanks everyone for your replies!

I took out all the old deck mud, removed the plastic "shower pitch" pieces, re-did it using the Quikrete Sand/Topping Mix + all purpose sand (1 bag sand/topping mix to half bag sand) with an emphasis on really packing it down well. I used a 4" wood block, a 12" float, a 14" float, a finishing trowel, and my bare hands.

Frustratingly, I still got crumbling, though not as bad as last time. What could be going wrong? Am I not adding enough water?

I'm tempted to use something with lime in it, like a type S mortar, just to solve this problem, and pack it down with a garden hoe.

Any advice? My pic show what it looks like after I vacuumed up the loose excess. Thank you!
Attached Images
 
__________________
Bill
MobileMarch567 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2020, 01:21 PM   #23
HS345
Tile Contractor
 
HS345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sherrodsville, Ohio
Posts: 6,573
You might be mixing it too dry, or you may be getting bad bags of sand topping mix. In my area I only have a couple of stores where I trust the bags. Look for stores that store them inside, and bags that aren't faded. Did you notice any hard chunks in the bags?
__________________
The name's Greg
HS345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2020, 01:34 PM   #24
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 89,226
Bill, you do not want a Type S mortar mix for that top mud bed. Unlike the pre-slope, the top mud bed has a specific design purpose of good compressive strength while still being porous enough to allow water to pass easily through it.

If your mud bed is not uniform in its texture (I can't tell from the photo) and it is vacuuming up in some places and not others, I would look at insufficient dry mixing of the components before adding water as a possible part of the problem.

I have, as a result of many, many visitor's complaints about their deck mud, tried to duplicate the problem a number of times. Sometimes when placing an actual shower bed, other times just as a test, and I have not been able to duplicate the problem. I decided at one point that it must be inadequate compaction of the mud before shaping as that is the only thing I wouldn't try on an actual project because without that you're just not placing deck mud. But I tried too little or too much cement, too little water, wrong type of sand, (that will cause some problems), different methods of mixing, and whatever else I could think of. I'd still get usable deck mud.

I wish I knew just what to tell you, but I don't.

How long are you letting this mud cure before you start vacuuming?

Are you covering it with polyethylene sheeting while you allow it to cure?

Are you dry-mixing to a very uniform consistency before adding water?

How long are you working the mix from the time you first add water 'till the time you finish placing the mud?

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2020, 04:43 PM   #25
MobileMarch567
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 13
Cx - thanks (as always!) for your reply.

FYI, my bed is not uniform in color or density; it varies from light grey to dark grey & from rock-hard to crumbly. You're saying I should spend more time mixing before adding the water?

To your questions:

I let the mud cure 24 hours before touching it at all. I don't cover it with any sheeting or anything. I try my best to add the sand to the dry mix, then mix it, then add water, then mix it to a consistent, dark, damp uniformity before packing it.

I don't measure the exact water amount but I keep adding small amounts until I can squeeze a "snowball" in my hand and it keeps its shape.
After adding the water, I take about 10 minutes to mix & work it with a shovel and a metal rake. I load it up into a bucket, then pack it all around the edges of the shower, using a laser level & a 2foot long 2x4 and a rubber mallet to pack it down level around all four edges. Then I pack it into the drain area, then i simply connect the inner and outer rings with the rest of the mortar. I didn't use a finishing trowel, just packed and packed and packed, until my knees and back were on fire. Then I sprayed the top with a fine mist from a windex spray bottle. Then I take a bunch of ibuprofen....thats it!

A few other things I thought of: Quikrete recommends replacing half the water with acrylic fortifier....Also, I could leave OUT the extra sand and JUST use the "Sand/topping mix". Also, Measure EXACTLY the amount of water as recommended by Quikrete?

Sorry to go into so much detail, but I hoped that might help you figure out what's going wrong...
__________________
Bill
MobileMarch567 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2020, 07:26 PM   #26
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 32,111
If I had to guess, I'd say you're mixing it a little too dry. That doesn't mean you want it to be soupy. I'd leave the spray mist off of it. If you get enough water in the mix, it doesn't need it. Sometimes that will wash the cement down away from the surface, leaving the surface sandy. When you get the mud shaped like you want, slick it down with a flat steel trowel. That should put a slight shine on the surface which will make the surface harder.

Oh, and you don't have to pack the crap out of it. Give it a couple slaps, move over 4-5 inches and repeat. Adding the plastic like Cx said is good advice although I've never done it on a shower floor in 40+ years. I want it to set so I can tile it the next day.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2020, 07:44 PM   #27
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 89,226
And Davy knows that the plastic does not slow the curing of the mud at all, he just doesn't wanna do it.

He's right about the packing of the mud, though. You don't hafta try to beat it into submission, and you don't need to be able to walk on it without leaving footprints when you're done packing, you just need to make it firm before cutting to shape.

It sounds to me like your mixing is at least part of the problem if your mud doesn't look uniform in color and texture when placing it.

And I agree with Dave about not spraying the placed mud with water. It takes very, very little moisture to cause the cement in the mixture to begin the process of hydration. And when I have experimentally mixed my mud too dry to the point where I was sure this time there was no way it was gonna work, it set up just fine if given enough time.

You might wanna get you a Bucket Mortar Mixer for the next time you're fixin' to do a small mud job. You can dry mix all your materials in five gallon buckets and stage them near the work area. It then takes only 1 or 2 minutes of mixing with your water to make another batch. Very handy tool for those of us who usually work alone. I sometimes wonder how I ever got along without one.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-13-2020, 12:43 PM   #28
tile_n00b
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 9
I had a similar issue when I did the preslope on my shower. I did the 5:1 mix, started with the border around the edge, packed in the middle, let it dry, and ended up with a bunch of sandy/crumbly spots. I was able to remove chunks of it with a shop vac just like your situation.

I had much better results on my second attempt (and with the top layer of mud above the liner) by using a 4:1 mix instead of 5:1 and using a bit more water. I also skipped doing the edge first and just worked my way around in a circle, alternating sides to prevent having a cold joint. Check here for photos and details: https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin...d.php?t=119864
__________________
Ryan

Last edited by tile_n00b; 01-13-2020 at 12:51 PM.
tile_n00b is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-27-2020, 09:16 AM   #29
MobileMarch567
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 13
Thank you everyone; got rid of crumbles!

Just wanted to update on the crumbly mortar: I took the crumbly mix out completely, started over and this time it was much, much better!

For other people that might have the same problem, here's what I did different:
I used the Mapei 4-to-1 mud bed mix (as opposed to Quikrete Sand Topping mix) and I mixed all of it at once and dumped in into the pan (as opposed to building the outer edges and working my way in). I also did NOT add any additional water at the end or spray it down or anything. I EXACTLY measured the amount of water to mix (as opposed to mixing water 'until i could form a clump in my hand'). I did NOT use the "perfect slope" plastic pieces, either...I just drew a line all around the liner and used that as my highest point for the mud.

Thanks again, everyone that offered advice; I really appreciate it.
__________________
Bill
MobileMarch567 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Concrete shower floor - barrier free - linear floor drain wcontractors Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 08-15-2017 12:32 PM
Installing shower drain in concrete floor USAF JB Tile Forum/Advice Board 2 05-31-2014 10:26 AM
drain is flush with concrete sub floor solemn Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 12-12-2009 10:40 AM
HELP Please. Shower drain isn't flush with tile. Allen279 Tile Forum/Advice Board 5 06-11-2009 10:39 PM
Shower Drain in Concrete Floor newgene Tile Forum/Advice Board 11 09-27-2006 03:36 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:08 AM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC