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Unread 10-25-2005, 01:51 PM   #16
T_Hulse
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All right Jeremy. When I get a little more time I'll "show my math" on the trig side.
That price seems awful low to me. How long do you think this will take you? This is not a footage type job, it's art, and it's in a whole different ballpark. I would think more like 10 or 15 grand; don't sell yourself short. They expect to pay more for this kind of work. How long do you think it will take you? Remember you have to cut all those field til outside & inside the circle with curved cuts & zero tolerance also. What kind of tile is it and what general area are you in?
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Unread 10-25-2005, 02:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
Here is the layout. The circle is 20' diameter, outside edge to outside edge. It is to be made from 12"x12" cut into quarters. The circle will be three tile wide. A straight lay pattern will be inside the circle using 12x12 tile
<.....>
Will the quartered tiles need to be cut at an angle in order to keep them from "running wide"? The grout joint will be 1/8" throughout.

How do you figure the area of a circle? Is it Radius+Radiusx 3.14?

How do you figure the total length of the circle? I have not a clue.
.....
Hope this helps.

124 tiles (with six-inch length on the outside side) go around the outside of a 20' circle assuming grout lines are 1/8th" or a hairline more.

The circle, "three tile wide", means I guess three 6-inch tiles. Three rows, three layers. Each of the inner two rows is smaller than the one outside it.

The diameter is at first 20', then 19.5', then 19', then 18.5', forgetting about the grout line for now, just to round it out to the nearest half-foot.

So these same 124 tiles now have a 5.635" edge on the inside side of the inner row. Since the diameter is 18 feet, 6 inches there.

So each 6" tile shrinks by 1/8th". The outer row is 6" to 5.875". The middle row is 5.875" to 5.75". The inner row is 5.75" to 5.675" If you want to ensure each tile is perfectly symmetrical too, you have to take off a little bit on both sides. Three rows of 124 tiles, each with two sides - that is 744 sides to work on. Removing one-sixteenth to zero on each side,
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Last edited by geniescience; 10-25-2005 at 03:02 PM.
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Unread 10-25-2005, 08:34 PM   #18
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Jeremy,
I totally agree with Tom. I think you are selling this job and yourself short. This isn't about trying to squeeze as much $$ from the job, but rather being paid for all the work that is going to go into it. There is going to be a lot more time involved than what you estimate. A lot more. This job is being spec'd out as a very custom install.

My 9 cents (custom install opinion)
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Unread 10-25-2005, 11:00 PM   #19
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Ok here's the trig if you want it. You'll need it if you want to mathmatically calculate the size of each cut so you don't have any dutchmans or have to make any special cuts. Sorry it's so wordy, but if you follow it carefully with pencil & paper, you'll be able to do it for any size tile or circle, plus you'll have a head start on basic trig.

The basic idea is that you have a circle of a known radius (120inches) so you can easily find the circumference (2*pi*r = 753.9822369"), and therefore the outer tile size (753.9822369/124tile=6.08050191")but the problem is that it's a curved measurment & we don't have any curved rulers to measure the tile with.
So if you put the tile where it goes up against the outside of the 20' circle, the square tile touches on just 2 points. The arc of of the circle between those 2 points is a little longer, it's that 6.08050191" that we just found. Since we can't curve a flexible tape perfectly into the shape of our cut, we have to find the straight line measurement that matches it, which is the straight top of our tile.
To find the straight line top, first grab a sheet of paper & draw a huge circle. Mark the centerpoint M. Mark 2 points at the top on the edge of the circle about 3" apart, mark them X and Y. These represent the outer corners of the tile that touch the circle. Now draw a straight line from X to M and Y to M. These are both radii of the circle (120") and follow the same line as the 2 angled sides of our tile.
So now we have a pie shaped triangle inside the circle. At the top of the circle are 2 lines, one is the arc XY(6.08050191" long) and one is the straight line xy. We need to find the straight line XY, this is what we'll use to measure our tile.
Find the midpoint of XY and mark it T. Draw a line from T to M. Now you've split your big triangle into 2 right triangles (right triang contains one 90deg angle).
Look at triangle MTY. We know the length of one side (MY is 120"), we know it's a right triangle, & we can get one angle (angle tmy). That's enough to find the length of TY using trig. So lets get that angle tmy first:
We know an overall circle is made up of 360 degrees. And we know our tile (incl grout) will be 124th of the overall circle. So 360degrees/124sections=2.9032258 degrees for angle xmy. xmy is represents the angle of one full tile. But we really need just angle tmy, which is exactly half of xmy, or 1.4516129 degrees.
Now the trig. Any right triangle will have a hypot****e (long side), an adjacent side (the side that is closest to whichever of the smaller angles you're looking at, and an opposite side (farthest away from your angle). We know the angle tmy (1.4516129 deg) and the hypot****e MY (120). The basic formula is that the sine of an acute angle (in a right triangle) times the length of the hypot****e equals the length of the opposite side.:
sin(tmy) x length of MY = length of TY
sin(1.4516129) x 120 = TY
.025332714 x 120 = TY
Therefore the length of TY is 3.0399257. TY is half of XY, so XY = 6.0798514, which is the straight line measument of the top of the tile (incl 1 grout line) that corresponds to the curved measurement of 6.08050191 between the same points.

I've intentionally done it the way Kurt first did the math, with the 1/8" included in the straight measurement because it's so much easier & the error factor is almost nothing. I need a case of beer or a chocolate cake to show you how to switch that.

I know it sounds elaborate, but once you've got it down, it only takes a minute or two on a good calculator to get your segment sizes. It's worth learning so you can use it with any type of curve, incl floor designs like this , curved vcap counters, etc.

Don't know why the forum editor won't let me type hypot****e, it must think I'm using a cuss word.
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Unread 10-26-2005, 12:01 AM   #20
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All I usually do is draw a scale drawing in Corel Draw or Illustrator. That tells me everything I need to know. The math is just to double check what is done. Maybe that's too simple. Looks to me like you guys are having way too much fun with your calculators.
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Unread 10-26-2005, 02:32 AM   #21
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Is this how it looks? From this I can get the size and angle for each row. If this helps let me know and I will give you the numbers.
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Unread 10-26-2005, 07:59 AM   #22
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Hypoteneuse. Venezuela. Antiperistasis. Hmm you had me going for a minute there.
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Last edited by Blackberry; 10-26-2005 at 08:09 AM.
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Unread 10-26-2005, 08:42 AM   #23
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Hi All,

Tom is basically giving a great geometry and trig lesson here.

Tom, when this one runs its course I'd like you to edit the thread and include in the liberry for future edification.

Well done gentlemen.

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Unread 10-26-2005, 03:02 PM   #24
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Tom are you introducing am accumulating error by using 6.08050191 as a tile width? That .08 is just over a 16th inch. In fact if he cuts 12" tiles in half he will generaly have a somewhat less than 6 inch piece.

How much error? 124 tiles in the circumfrence times .08 comes to almost 10 inches. I know these numbers are smaller than the tolerances we deal with with tile but my point is small errors over such a large size really add up.

My inclination is to come at it from the other end. If I have a tile 6" how many tiles do I need to go around a 10' radius with approx 1/8" grout line? I get 122 tiles and just under 3/16" for grout.

I see the differences as that between theory and practice. Or measurement and story stick.
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Last edited by Blackberry; 10-26-2005 at 03:12 PM.
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Unread 10-26-2005, 05:54 PM   #25
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Hi John,
3/16" grout isn't allowed, 1/8" has been specified, so we have to adjust the size or number of tile to get that, so 122 tile won't work.
6.08050191" includes one grout line, that's why it can be more than 6". I mentioned that nearer the end, but I should have been more clear at the start also. 124 tile does work in theory with perfect 12" tile & a saw that has a standard kerf width of .0875" and an 1/8" grout line all around. In real life Jeremy's tile will surely be different, but these figures do work exactly as shown & will give him a pattern to get there.
That's a nice picture. Does your program give you just the curved measurement along the circumference or does it also give you the corresponding straight line measurement of each tile? You need the straight line measurement or you will be introducing the accumulating error you were afraid of if you just use a portion of the circumference.
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Unread 10-26-2005, 07:03 PM   #26
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The drawing is a 1 to 1 scale. I can use it to measure any point on the floor.

The number is actually less than 3/16. I went with the slightly larger average to avoid ever having no grout line at all. .08 seemed just a little too tight considering tile tolerances. Maybe I just need more experience.

1/32 = 0.03125
1/16 = 0.0625
3/32 = 0.09375
1/8 = 0.125
5/32 = 0.15625
3/16 = 0.1875

My point really is that, while we all should have a grounding in math and geometry, we live on our knees elbow deep in the mud and the blood and the beer. I don't think there would be any argument that the computer is now a part of a basic tool kit along with a Felker® saw, margin trowel and knee pads. A much more practical addition than a scientific calculator and copy of "Geometry the Sleasy Way" would be a simple cad program. Corel Draw for example.
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Unread 10-26-2005, 08:00 PM   #27
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I did a job with a fellow tradesman who had a background in graphic arts. It was a huge house with tons of detail. He knew Corell Draw inside and out. It was great working there for he had all the rooms laid out with Corell Draw and a starting point. All the messing around with layout was done on the computer so we knew where all the cuts would be. Needless to say I'm learning Corell Draw!!
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Unread 10-26-2005, 08:09 PM   #28
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A good skill to have. PM me if I can help you over any rough spots.
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Unread 10-26-2005, 08:14 PM   #29
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Quote:
.08 seemed just a little too tight considering tile tolerances.
The grout line is not .08, it is .125, exactly 1/8" (remember that the tile is just a little less than 6" because of half a saw kerf missing).
Quote:
A much more practical addition than a scientific calculator and copy of "Geometry the Sleasy Way" would be a simple cad program.
I don't know, John. Your way didn't serve you so well this time. At 122 tiles (6" max minus half a kerf width) you need a minimum of a .22105" grout line. That's almost 1/4". (Would you like me to type the proof or can you do it yourself?) To get the 1/8" grout line you need a minimum of 124 tiles. You're a foot off dude.
Quote:
I see the differences as that between theory and practice.
I agree.
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Unread 10-26-2005, 10:13 PM   #30
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OK boss. Nice tight grout lines. You're right: 124 tiles.

So to summarize:
Angle on each side is 1.4 degrees off 90.
Tiles are 5 15/16 long and wide to the nearest 1/32:
First row: 5 15/16 top, 5 11/16 bottom.
2nd row: 5 11/16 top, 5 13/32 bottom
3rd row:5 13/32 top, 5 3/32 bottom

The difference between the bottom of one and the top of the next at 1/8 spacing is .003" or 3/1000" Even Tom will agree that's too small to worry about.

This is all according to my drawing. Any mistakes will be blamed on the software.
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