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Unread 12-29-2010, 02:33 PM   #1
CanyonTile
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Kerdi vs Float

New to the forum here and I must say I am enjoying the threads. I have noticed though that everyone likes to use Schluter and Kerdi systems, and although I find the process interesting I have a simple question to ask......

1)Doesn't anyone one around here float and mop anymore?

2) Is this system promoted here so frequently since it is one of the only approaches that a DYI'er can actually complete themselves for waterproofing a shower with minimal knowledge?

3)Have the days of good old fashioned hot mops, lathe and scratch been replaced by easier methods for the sake of cheap labor?

Just curious, not trying to start any arguments. Have taken the Kerdi classes from Schluter and the system seems outstanding, but for some reason my contractors feel more comfortable with the old methods, stating that they are more reliable and time tested. Thoughts on this anyone ?
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Unread 12-29-2010, 03:00 PM   #2
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Welcome, Gabe!

I moved you to the Pro's hangout because this is more a general discussion than a project thread. Besides, you'll meet some, er, interesting folks here.

1) They do in California, and some other western states, but not so much anywhere else. Too messy, too smelly, etc.

2) Not at all! We teach the more typical PVC liner/backerboard method as well as some of the newer liquid membrane methods. If a member is open to which method may be used, then we try to find one that matches their skill set and product availability. Otherwise, they ask, we answer.

3) Yes. However, different regions will have different preferences, and some customers are more willing to adopt newer practices than others. We think that any nationally recognized method, done properly, will lead long-lasting, completely useable shower. We also believe that any method can be corrupted by taking short-cuts or a lack of attention to detail. We don't offer any advice that isn't backed up by industry standards, manufacturer's instructions, or years of personal experience.

Would you mind giving us a little background on yourself?
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Unread 12-29-2010, 03:28 PM   #3
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Thanks Bob,

Sounds good, I am always up for meeting "interesting" people !

1) True, I have noticed that when I run into someone outside of Southern California the methods used for installation vary greatly. From various membrane methods and backerboard methods. I think that the reason that mop and float is the standard ( at least in So Cal) is due to ground movement. Lots of scratch goes on here.

2) Makes sense to me, there are always new systems coming out and it is best to have a some knowledge of them for a well rounded education. And I like that approach, they ask, you answer. I needed to remind myself that much of the discussion here are DYI orientated, my bad.

3)Can not argue with you there.

Background? Well started swinging a hammer when I was about, say, knee-high. Been involved with construction ever since. In regards to tile and stone, I actually entered this aspect of the business after a few years of installing custom hardwood, I wanted to expand my knowledge and entered commercial tile, ( since I can let my creativity flow more), been in tile ever since, past 15 years. No longer slinging mud now, but more tile design, sales, harrasing the setters But still like to get my hands dirty like the next guy/gal. Try to learn something new everday. Yourself ?
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Unread 12-29-2010, 03:30 PM   #4
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Gabe,

welcome to the forum.

1- What Bob said. I have never seen one myself. Must be the sheltered life I lead.

2- Personally I stopped doing vinyl liners about 13 years ago before switching to kerdi. Didn't find this site for a few years after that. Seems I like to re-create the wheel on my own as life would have been much easier had I stopped by here first I like Kerdi. Hydroban is also in my arsenal.

Some of my best friends install vinyl liners, not that there's anything wrong with that.

3- For me, the traditional vinyl liner has some pitfalls such as niches, benches and curved surfaces which surface applied waterproofing handles very well.

Good questions. Glad to have you join us.
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Unread 12-29-2010, 04:43 PM   #5
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Bob said it well.

Vinyl pan liners and hot mopped are two different things..don't think anyone here advocates hot mopped anymore but I could be wrong..vinyl pans if done correctly still have a following but I think it is generally agreed they lack the sanitary ness(sp?) of surface membrane showers but by no means obsolete yet.
Alot of experimenting with hybrid type showers using liquid membranes and cpe membranes seem to be getting popular as well as a way to offset cost and labor.
Then Kerdi board showers are yet another story in progress too.
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Unread 12-29-2010, 05:02 PM   #6
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Glad to be here Paul, thank you !

I never trusted vinyl liners, nor other water proofing applications except hot mop, but I will admit, they have thier own set of issues on occasion. Kerdi though definetly has my attention, I liked the product presentation and the classes, quality stuff, no argument there.

Been trying to introduce the Kerdi system to some of the setters out here, but I would have better chances of selling snow to eskimos...

Good to see other methods and applications. Guess it all depends on the locale and comfort level of those involved. That is why I became involved in tile, so many avenues and niches within it.
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Unread 12-29-2010, 05:04 PM   #7
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Welcome Gabe,

I was born and raised in Southern California. Grew up in Redondo beach. How's business out there now?

There was a guy named Jimmy Reed from Rock Solid Tile that use to pop in here. I think he was based out of Van Nuys. He does some bad to the bone installations using lath and mud and full Hydroban. You can do a search on here and you will find his web site. As for the Kerdi. Great product, but your setters might bitch about the corner build up.

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Unread 12-29-2010, 05:27 PM   #8
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Thanks John,

Business is good, wierd season tho, slow when it should be cranking, cranking when it should be slow. Last 2 months it has been building up and no end in sight so far. Lots of the setters are getting hit a bit still by cheap labor, but we always tell the end user, " No worries, they will still be around here to help you fix it ".

Rock Solid ! Does alot of Oceanside Glass out here, great setter, seen his work! In fact I am wearing one of his company shirts right now. Tile is a small world John. Thankfully it is the good , time tested people are that are surving right now. Seems everyone and thier brother decided to get into this 5 years back, they are the first out too, no tears lost...

You being from Redondo Beach. I am sure you can appreciate that I pray for a 6.0 earthquake everynight to bring some business back to the folks down here. Heck after Northridge, we had 3 solid years of work, and if they wanted it done sooner than 6-9 months, it was all a matter of naming your price.....

Rock on!
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Unread 12-29-2010, 05:48 PM   #9
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Still a fan of Float over Kerdi here in So Cal...
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Unread 12-29-2010, 05:58 PM   #10
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Gabe,

Kerdi is a hard sale anywhere due to the pricing I suppose, along with teaching an old dog new tricks.
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Unread 12-29-2010, 07:04 PM   #11
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Hi Gabe, welcome. Some of us still do mud work, I guess it's in my blood.
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Unread 12-29-2010, 07:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
along with teaching an old dog new tricks.
I suppose I resemble that remark.
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Unread 12-29-2010, 07:17 PM   #13
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Kerdi your float! That's a bomb proof shower.
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Unread 12-29-2010, 07:28 PM   #14
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Good to see some floaters here, the good kind, not the kind that ruin my beer

Rock On Everyone!
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Unread 12-31-2010, 10:51 AM   #15
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Yea Gabe, when I moved to Colorado from San Diego I was amazed that nobody floated walls out here. Even more amazing was the fact that nobody was interrested in getting a mud job. It was like learning a new trade. I must admit though, as much as I miss setting on mud beds, I don't miss mud work very much.
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