Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 10-24-2010, 08:35 AM   #1
Keneo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5
Cutback Adhesive Scraping

I am replacing my old vinyl floor with ceramic. I have about 120 square feet of black mastic to deal with.

After reading a few posts I have learned that solvent is a bad idea. The consensus seems to be that a razor scraper and modified thinset is the way to go. The problem is that the cutback is adhering REALLY well to the concrete subfloor. As far as I can tell, this stuff gets as thick as 1/8" in places but usually about 1/16". I have seen a few posted photos of other cutback covered floors but they seem to be flakey by comparison.

So what is the goal when we are scraping cutback adhesive? Do I really need to get every bit of it off? Or just the loose stuff? Getting it down to a brown stain will take 20+ full hours, 30 blades, and a ton of aches, pains, and repetitive stress injuries. The prospect of having to use a razor scraper on the entire floor kinda tempts me to use it on my wrists instead! (Ok, maybe a little carried away)

I put a short video of my floor on youtube. If you search for cutback nightmare it is the very first result. (I am not allowed to post live links here yet)

Thanks in advance for any advice. Thanks so much!
__________________
Ken
Keneo is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 10-24-2010, 09:20 AM   #2
Brian in San Diego
AC Specialist -- Schluterville Graduate
 
Brian in San Diego's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: La Quinta, CA and Usk, WA
Posts: 10,791
Ken,

Welcome to the forums!

First of all here's a link to your cutback nightmare.

From what I see if the video that cutback may come up rather easily. Have you tried a scraper yet? The one thing I don't like the looks of is how rough the underlying concrete is. One of the problems with cutback is that it can contain asbestos depending upon how old it is. So caution must be used in it's removal. You may want to have a sample tested to know for sure. If it does contain asbestos the the only way to remove it is to scrape it. You want to prevent getting the particles airborne. (There's a term for this but I cannot remember it right now.)

I had to get cutback off a small area (less than 100 sq. ft.) and I bet it took me a couple of days to remove the floor and the cutback. I had the blisters and sore extremities to prove it.

Brian
__________________
Brian
If that doesn't work, I'll always think it should have.
Brian in San Diego is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-24-2010, 09:36 AM   #3
silvercitytile
Registered User
 
silvercitytile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: silver city
Posts: 5,973
Send a message via MSN to silvercitytile
yup what brian said about asbestos!!!

and if not asbestos a 4" razor scraper works well
__________________
jeff aka papi chulo. "I'll make you famous!"(William H. Bonney aka Billy The Kid)

Schluter Kerdi and Ditra installer in Southern New Mexico
Castillo Construction
silvercitytile is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-24-2010, 09:46 AM   #4
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 89,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by BSD
(There's a term for this but I cannot remember it right now.)
In the asbestos abatement bidness the material is generally referred to a friable when it can be easily reduced to its individual fiberous state, I believe.

Term hasn't anything to do with being airborne, but that's the intended inference, I believe.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-24-2010, 01:47 PM   #5
Keneo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5
Well thanks for the advice on asbestos. I do appreciate the warnings and I will be taking care.

Brian,
I did try a scraper and do manage to peel off most of it. I am left with a surface that feels pretty smooth like concrete but still looks as black as before. I certainly wouldn't call this a "brown stain." This makes me wonder if I have actually accomplished anything useful. The question for me is still "how much of this do i have to trim off?" Do I really need to get it to the "brown stain" state? Or will a good modified thinset compensate for this?
__________________
Ken
Keneo is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-24-2010, 02:39 PM   #6
MudMaker
The Revolution has begun/Make America Great Again
 
MudMaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Centerville, Ohio
Posts: 8,306
From the Custom's website on Cutback.. You really have to use some elbo grease to get to the brown stain...



Adhesive layers must be removed as they reduce mortar
bond strength to cement surfaces. Use extreme caution as
adhesives may contain asbestos fibers. Do not sand or grind
adhesive residue, as harmful dust may result. Never use
adhesive removers or solvents, as they soften the adhesive
and may cause it to penetrate into the concrete. Adhesive
residue must be wet-scraped to the finished surface of the
concrete, leaving only the transparent staining from the glue.
Do a test bond area first, to determine desirable results. Refer
to the RFCI Pamphlet, “Recommended Work Practices for
Removal of Resilient Floor Coverings” for further information.
__________________
mm (aka "Paco")
MudMaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-24-2010, 07:33 PM   #7
jweller
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: outside of Annapolis, MD
Posts: 24
After I made certain it did not contain aspestos, I took more of it off my floor than I care to think about with an angle grinder and a diamond cup wheel. There was simply no scraping it up. I wore goggles, one of the 3M cartridge respirators you can get at the big box stores, ear plugs, knee pads, and made sure every inch of my body was covered. I taped any vents off, and tented the entire room. It was a miserable job to be certain, but at the end of the day, it beat the daylights out of scraping. I think I'd STILL be working on that method.

The best part of doing it like this is that I didn't wonder if I did a good enough job. I laid my tile without fear. they have been down over a year with no issues.
__________________
Justin
jweller is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-25-2010, 05:04 AM   #8
bbcamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 30,274
Quote:
I laid my tile without fear.
And that's a good thing, too! Tile can smell fear!
bbcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-25-2010, 08:29 AM   #9
Brian in San Diego
AC Specialist -- Schluterville Graduate
 
Brian in San Diego's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: La Quinta, CA and Usk, WA
Posts: 10,791
Ken,

You could rent a scarifier from HD. I still think it important to get the majority of the cutback up. Using a rental scarifier, although messy, won't be quite so bad as doing it by hand with an angle grinder and a diamond cup.

Before I got to that stage, I would do a water absorption test on the area where you think you've cleaned it up. put a teaspoon of water on the area and see if it absorbs into the concrete and how long it takes. If it's still sitting there after five minutes then you have work to do.

Brian
__________________
Brian
If that doesn't work, I'll always think it should have.
Brian in San Diego is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-19-2011, 01:19 PM   #10
markdb77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 40
Spent 8 hours yesterday , 2 guys, attempting to remove this crap off of my 250 square foot concrete slab. I assume this is the "cutback" as mentioned in other threads. It is almost a paper thin coating on my slab. Looks like plastic shavings when scraped with water.

Soaked the floor with water, then tried a large (square edge) floor scraper with minimal results. The 4" razor scraper works fairly well, but VERY slow, tedious and painful. We eventually tried some 60 grit sand paper, which worked faster and seemed to remove some of the black stuff. We hand wet-sanded the whole floor, then went back and razor scraped the larger patches of black. used a squeegie, lots of water and a shop vac to suck up the resulting black sludge from sanding. I am left with a leopard pattern concrete slab.

First question.. Is there a reasonably easy way to determine if this contains asbestos? House was built in 61, located in the Ohio. We wore asbestos respirators, kept the material wet the entire time, put the shop vac outside and ran the hose in.

Second question.. Is enough off this black stuff gone (pic attached) or should I take more measures. If I put water on it now, it will disappear in about 20 minutes, I dont know if it is evaporating or soaking in though

I cant imagine a hired contractor spending 20 hours scraping a 250 (or larger) sq ft area, inch by inch to remove ALL of this stuff.

Thanks for the advice
Attached Images
 
__________________
Mark
markdb77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-19-2011, 01:42 PM   #11
CanyonTile
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Agoura Hills, CA
Posts: 574
Mark,
1) Any Vinyl flooring installed prior to 1978 is almost guaranteed to contain asbestos in the material and the adhesive. Keep the area wet when doing this and be careful about stating exactly how many sf you are removing. (legal stuff)
2) Looks like you still have some work to do to it
3) Belive in the fact that a normal contractor may or may not remove all that cut-back, but a Abatment Company surely would be the one doing it.

Much of what I have to say regards legal ramifications, so just be careful Mark.

Interesting tid bit here: There are two types of Asbestos, the granular form and the fiberous form, only one of them can become airborne and hence be inhaled, the other one you could throw a handful of it in the air and watch it drop straight down. Legally though there is no difference between them and both are considered inhalation risks.
Thank a Lawyer....
__________________
Gabe

We Got You Covered

www.canyontileandstone.com
CanyonTile is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-19-2011, 07:57 PM   #12
markdb77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 40
I am currently running an experiment on my leopard skin concrete slab. I have set one tile with versabond fortified thinset. I also painted a seperate patch with Redguard liquid membrane, when that dries I will use Versabond over that with a test tile. I am planning on using the Redguard over the joint where the slab meets the wooden subfloor (with wonderboard already installed over it). I am considering applying Redguard over the entire concrete slab... is this a good idea? are there any real benefits?

After the mortar sets up (24 hours??), what is a good test of the bond? pry bar? kicking it?
__________________
Mark
markdb77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-19-2011, 08:13 PM   #13
Davestone
Florida Tile & Stone Man
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Naples Fl.
Posts: 22,690
Redgard can help prevent cracks coming through the tile, but if it doesn't stick well to cutback it could be a problem.I guess the testing you're doing would be best.Although sometimes time changes things, like adherence of thinset and membranes.
Typically it takes 3 days for latex thinsets to cure out and sometimes longer.If after a couple days a flatbar breaks the tile coming up,and the thinset is equally sticking to tile and underlayment i think you have a winner.But if the Redgard all comes up with the thinset,or the tile comes off the thinset,or the thinset comes off the Redgard you have a problem.
__________________
Dave



http://Davestonestile.com
Davestone is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-20-2011, 06:49 AM   #14
markdb77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 40
Thanks for the reply.

I suppose I will wait it out for 3 days and test the bond.

So I should have to pry it up with a good amount of force to pass the test ??
__________________
Mark
markdb77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-20-2011, 06:54 AM   #15
bbcamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 30,274
You can't accurately measure force. What to look for is thinset sticking equally well to the tile and the floor. Ideally, the thinset splits somewhere down the middle.
bbcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cutback-Ready to give up scraping waj Tile Forum/Advice Board 19 12-12-2012 02:33 PM
Found cutback on plywood...any way to avoid scraping it? thefed17 Tile Forum/Advice Board 6 12-15-2008 10:33 PM
cutback adhesive mgconc Tile Forum/Advice Board 2 11-29-2007 11:18 PM
Cutback adhesive coffee4me Tile Forum/Advice Board 5 03-29-2006 04:42 PM
cutback adhesive christie Tile Forum/Advice Board 5 01-18-2006 10:15 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:28 AM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC