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Unread 03-26-2007, 01:19 AM   #16
JoeC
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Dave, Ouch! My point about rewording things also applies to doing things the " right way" which has undergone many modifications on the instructions on the different manufacturers instructions on gtout bags oveer the years. Do you remember the suggestion to dry burnish fresh grout? Did you ever try it? That was the"right way" to finish grout according to the instructions on the bag circa 1981 or 82. Trying that caused some big problems for me on a large commercial job . Have you had the wrong color grout put in bags which were clearly marked as another color? Happened two different times on jobs. Customer service rep came out and agreed that it was the wrong color in the bags. But at least they took responsibility for it and fixed it themselves.
Do you remeber when it was the "right way" to cover the fresh grout with plastic sheeting for three days to get an even cure, then next it was "damp burlap" for a few days. I followed those instructions also. I found it very difficult to get paid for small jobs with that stuff on the floors where the customers were unable to see the finished job. And still there were occasional problems with mottling. I measured the water, didn't retemper the grout, etc. I rarely had problems, but my point was, there were still infrequent mottling problems. It just seemd to me that the rewording of the instructions were an attempt to reduce the chances of liability on the part of the manufacturer. Don't mean to go on and on bout this, but hey!
I don't know anything about manufacturing grout, and with all the similar colors it must be most challenging. I guarantee that my customer will be happy with my work before I am paid, that is why I try to eliminate things that may cause problems, such as materials that may be an issue. I think this is where I came in. JoeC
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Unread 03-26-2007, 06:09 AM   #17
Dave Gobis
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Joe,
I still dry grout to this very day. It works with nearly every cement grout on the market if you know how to do it. It may not work on each project depending on a lengthy list of "what if's" but, I have cleaned some pretty large jobs, 1000's of feet with sawdust, burlap, and a buffer. There is nothing wrong with the method and it is considerably easier than sponges. Sponges went on the bag print and cheese cloth came off the bag as polymers developed favor and formal training declined, a revision based on field experience.

There have been two grout complaints in my career that were a result of bag issues and -0- due to product issues. There is certainly some luck in that, but not much. Damp curing is still the right way and always will be with any Portland cement based grout. The above noted addition of polymers also resulted in the addition of methelyne cellulose, used to retain moisture in grout and thinset, extending the curing time. Gradually the damp cure recommendation was phased out of written instructions because the chemical provided a reasonable (but not best) alternative to damp curing and manufacturers were under constant pressure from contractors and end users to eliminate the damp cure recommendation due to cost incurred by all parties. Field experience showed chemical modification provided a reasonable alternative.

Mottling is and remains an issue on cement grouts. It is not a product issue; it is an installation issue cut and dried. This would require an article size explanation on the major how and why issue and I have a 1500 word article I can paste in if you really want to know some of the reasons. Even that does not thoroughly cover all the issues, which would require a booklet.

The "right way" recommendations on products reflect those methods which can reasonably be accomplished by the user. They, like TCA recommendations, are a guideline based on minimum criteria for successful installations and are not intended to preclude enhancement by those wishing to do so. They are based on real world conditions that many construe as perfect world conditions though there is certainly some exception to the statement in limited instances.
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Unread 03-28-2007, 01:43 AM   #18
JoeC
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Dave, thanks for your response. I want you to know that I always read the instructions and tried to follow what the manufacturer says. I tried to make that clear in my post by citing the changing instructions. The method of dry burnishing that I made reference to was explained on the bags of "quarry grade sanded grout". The process was explained, as as best I can remember( it was 24 years ago) "after spreading the grout in the joints, let it set up until firm, then sprinkle some dry grout on the tile and rub in with a piece of cheesecloth , then use damp cheesecloth to clean the tile" I don;t know if you ever grouted that way, but I haven't done that since! We all know that mottling occurs for variouis reasons, including different water ratios in buckets of grout, different temperatires during the course of grouting, even differing air movement in different parts of the jo, obviously things that the manufacturer has no control over. What motivated my reply to Shaughn's post was that some grouts manufacturers seem to have more trouble with mottling than others, despite what assurances are on the bags, and the bottom line is probably wise to not believe everything that is written on the bag. JoeC
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Unread 03-28-2007, 06:12 AM   #19
Dave Gobis
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Joe, I do not entirely disagree that some recommendations and instructions are a little out there but it is not the general rule by any means. The dry grout method you mentioned works well and I have done it many times on small and large jobs. It is a learned technique, the addition of sawdust is a variation of that method that reduces the waiting time and dust. I don't know if in todays world a cloud of swirling silica would go over so good.
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Unread 03-28-2007, 05:59 PM   #20
Schluterman
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Joe, I believe you could atrribute alot of mottling issues with the crappy water we use to mix grout with. Try mixing your modified grouts with distilled water, you will see a difference. This is why Laticrete makes there 1776, you need to eliminate as much water as possible. John

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Unread 03-28-2007, 10:19 PM   #21
01floor
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Has anyone seen the new urethane grout that daltile is pushing? Dave I would love to hear some feedback from you. It is a quartz and urathane blend and it will not discolor, efferflourence or bleed out. And when you wash it you could do 1000 feet with one 5 gln bucket of water. My concern is the urethane drying on the tile.
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Unread 03-28-2007, 10:27 PM   #22
Shaughnn
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Hey 01Floor,
Different Dal sites carry different product lines. Do you happen to recall who the manufacturer of this urethane grout might have been?
SHaughnn
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Unread 03-29-2007, 04:50 AM   #23
ddmoit
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Shaughnn, I think there is only one urethane grout right now - Quartz-Lock.

http://www.starquartz.com/grout.html
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Unread 05-05-2007, 10:15 PM   #24
JoeC
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John, thanks for the sugestion about distilled water. That is a trick I haven't heard about. I rarely have had issues with mottllng or shade variation over the years, but when I have it seems like the issue was most apparent with one brand. I guess that this was the motivation for my replies on this thread. Much less of an issue nowadays thankfully. JoeC
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Unread 05-06-2007, 02:22 PM   #25
snobody
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Ive just used Mapei's Kerapoxy for the first time. I was very leary about using an epoxy grout, but I am now a firm believer. The cleanup was nowhere as difficult as I thought It might be...and the results are great. I like the idea of a grout that wont shrink...crack or stain...anyone else with an opinion on this?
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