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Unread 10-07-2004, 12:51 PM   #16
Scooter
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Thats fine, but it still does not involve any wood. You will have to build out the countertop to match the inside dimension of the "C" with CBU and/or mud.

I think a flat Counter Trim A-8242 would be my choice. Building out the setting bed to an exact thickness to match that "C" would be a pain. Of course, in the old days, mud guys like John have specific product made of galvinized metal that match those trim pieces.

You may want to become a Mud Man. Buy John's Book. I bet he has a section on mud countertops.
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Unread 10-07-2004, 01:24 PM   #17
W.Malouf
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What is the difference between V-Cap and A8262 (6")?

In the beginning of this thread, I was looking for a "flat" V-cap with no success...

-WM
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Unread 10-07-2004, 07:37 PM   #18
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V-Cap IS A-8262.

There's no such thing as a "flat" V-cap. They are in the shape of a v.
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Unread 10-08-2004, 12:27 AM   #19
W.Malouf
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John,

Thanks for replying.

What do you think the caps are in this photo, and what is the 1x wood trim for that runs under the cap?
-WM

UPDATE!
I just talked to an old friend of mine who answered all of these questions:

The 1X wood is strictly decorative and is used to cover the exposed mortar beneath the cap edge.
The Box Cap is applied directly on the counter and pressed into the mortar bed to a desired position in relation to the tiles.

Thanks for the tips!
-WM
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Unread 11-02-2004, 02:34 PM   #20
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Box Caps

OK,

It took longer than expected, but the Box Caps have arrived!

I have been doing what I can while waiting (installed 3/4" plywood & set Sink).

It appears that the groove in the bottom of the cap is what accepts the wood trim that I was talking about. This trim will cover the exposed plywood edge and hold the outer edge of the cap. There will still be a small overhang (1/4") of the Box Cap to give the desired look.

Does ANYONE have experience with these beasts?

Check out the thickness of the Box Cap!
-WM
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Unread 11-03-2004, 02:17 PM   #21
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AFter a day, no one is answering you and I'll give it a stab.

I still don't see the wood trim thing. Sorry, I just don't get it.

The ones I have seen installed were installed over a mud bed. That mud bed has a galvinized edge with holes in it that protrouds slightly from the edge of the plywood. This piece holds the mud in shape.

They are typically an inch and a quarter. That space between the top and bottom probably measures that same distance, so the mud cap goes onto the galvinized trim.

I did notice a rabbet of about an eighth, and can not really explain that feature. I would just fill the whole shebang up with thinset and slap that baby onto the galvinized strip and call it a day.

Unless I am missing something. But alas I am not a mud man.
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Unread 11-04-2004, 12:06 PM   #22
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Scooter,

Thanks for giving it a stab.
I guess that it's hard to relay what I am talking about, so I drew (very poorly) a diagram of how I think that these may work.
The old installations that I have seen in old houses have just that small lip overhanging the wood trim that covers the edge of the plywood and mud.
Does this make any sense?
Thanks,
-WM
ps I think that the wood trim is closer to 1/2" than 1X
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Unread 11-04-2004, 03:32 PM   #23
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Well now, I am really confused.

The historically correct applications I have seen have the unglased portion of the box cap facing toward the wall/backsplash and completely encapsulated (golly thats a big word) by the galvinized counter mud stop. Thus, there is nothing into which your bottom wood trim fits into. The countertop sits proud of the cabinet face frame by about 2-3 inches and any wood trim fits behind the mud cap and buts up against the plywood.

Indeed, in looking at the inside of your Box Cap, there are two legdges, and being a carpenter first, I would call them rabbets. If, as you suggest, the rabbets somehow capture wood trim, the box cap would have to be installed with the unglazed portion facing down. That would place the mud cap a good inch above the tile surface. That makes no sense to me.

Moreover, those rabbets in the unglazed portion are only about an eight of an inch wide, hardly enough to capture a 1x4 wood trim.

I think you are trying to install the piece in the wrong direction.

You seem really committed to having something look like a mud job and using pieces especially designed for mud jobs, but don't want to have a mud job installed. Again, I think you are using the wrong piece for type of installation you are doing.

I would consider calling Mission Tile in South Pasadena and asking them what the heck to do. They aren't the most helpfull shop in town, and generally the place is stocked with 20 year old dweebs that couldn't get a job at Starbucks, but maybe there is an adult there that can help you.

I have a old guy sub (who is retired) but I'll try to find his number over the next few days and PM you with his phone number. He did some mud job countertops for me years ago. Maybe he has the time to do your job. He is not cheap.
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Unread 11-04-2004, 05:22 PM   #24
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Yep, those are box caps.

I don't know what the "rabbets" are for, and all box caps didn't have them. It has nothing to do with the wood apron that's nailed to the front of the cabinet. That moulding is nailed on straight and level. It gives/gave the tile setter something to go to to keep the box caps running straight and true . . .

. . . because the "drainboard" did NOT run level. The reason the caps are so high is because the drainbaord surface would hit about a quarter inch down on the ends and slope down to about a half-inch below the top of the cap at the sink. In other words, the countertops on both sides of the sink were sloped almost like a shower floor but not as severe.

So you nail your wood trim on and then set the caps just proud of the trim. The caps were set before the counter itself was floated. They would put down with pure cement slurry. Nowadays you'd used thin set mixed rather stiff. You'll need to nail a strip of metal lath for the caps to grab onto. Install the caps, and then install your CBU behind them. No, you don't have to slope it.

And believe it or not, box caps were before my time. When I entered the trade 31 years ago they were already using V-caps.
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Unread 11-04-2004, 06:48 PM   #25
W.Malouf
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Thank You!

AHHHHH

At last, the answer to my quest!

Thanks SO much for filling me in. That makes so much sense.

Now, you KNOW that I am going to make those counters slope! LOL

Thanks again,
-WM
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Unread 11-04-2004, 06:59 PM   #26
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I've torn them out. The rough top (1-by boards) would be set lower than the edge of the cabinet frame to make room for mortar. Sometimes they'd have over an inch under the drainboard itself. And contrary to modern thinking, they didn't do things better in the good old days. Most of the old installations are rotted out. They didn't understand the necessity to waterproof the drainboards.
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Unread 11-04-2004, 08:01 PM   #27
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John, Scooter and W.,
Sorry to have not gotten back to this thread earlier. I believe that the "rabbets"/"dado" (rabbets are channels cut into the face of materials and dado are cut into the rear, I think), are meant to cradle the c-metal used for a mud deck. The plywood substrate should not be held proud of the cabinet face unless you REALLY need to have the wood trim underneath. Instead, the c-metal protrudes from the cabinet face 1/4", and that should be enough for the "rabbet" and setting material.
The "box cap' that W. is using *could* be used as a horizonal cap/stop for the countertop, but I would use z-metal for the counter face and plan for a 2' "dropper"/"apron". The "box cap" would then need a curb of fat-mud along the countertop edge, added after the decks have been trued out. I'd use the short leg of my L-edges and a couple of float strips set onto the deck for a screed guage.
Deffinately a mud job though. If you are going to invest in quality tile, it makes no sense at all to put it on plywood, or even CBU.
Best of luck,
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Unread 11-20-2004, 12:00 AM   #28
W.Malouf
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Here Goes...

I have thrown in the towel and decided to go ahead with this on my own.

I installed the 1X2 apron on the face of the cabinet high enough to catch the center of the Box Cap. After I set the Caps, I will install the 1/2" Wonderboard up against them for the counter level that I am looking for.

I have not been able to find any galvanized strip that will fit these caps, so I am hoping that thick thinset and my apron will do the trick.

It's not that I don't want a mud job, I just could not find a mud man...

Does this look like it will work?
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Unread 11-20-2004, 08:21 AM   #29
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I'm afraid I can't add anything useful about the installation of that cap, but I wanna make a suggestion about the substrate. Why give up the correct installation because you can't find a mud man, WM? I assure you it ain't rocket science and is something you can do on your first try. You won't be fast, but that doesn't seem to be an issue on this project. And you would be able to do your period-correct drainboard slope.

Yep, that's what you aughta do, be a mud man about it.

I know I've seen the countertops you're talking about, sloped drainboard and all, but I never paid any attention to the installation of the tile edge. Wish I had now - I could be a hee-row.
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Unread 11-20-2004, 09:25 AM   #30
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This is off-topic, but is that a copy of American Bungalow on the counter by your tools?
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