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Unread 04-13-2020, 02:46 PM   #1
Chowchewey
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Can I get past the planning stages of a re-model?

First off, with lots of help from the contributors of this fine website, I completed the re-model of my guest bath with great results that should last many years. Thank you. But the bad part is it has given me confidence to re-model the master bath without regard to whether I am getting in over my head or not! Time will tell. So I am in the very early planning stages and have a few questions already:
1) As of today the plan is install a 5 sided corner shower using a pre-made base. A base because deflecto says I cannot tile the floor. I have a truss system for floor joists where there is a pair of 2x4s with steel trussing (webbing) inbetween on 24" centers, 14' spans, topped with 3/4" OSB. I really didn't need deflecto to tell me they are too bouncy as you can feel subtle movement when walking. But i assume this has little bearing with a pre-made base as long as I set it in mortar. Agree? Can any of you recommend a brand or preferred material for a base? I want it to be sturdy and long lasting - not flimsy - easy to keep clean - etc and etc..

2) The corner shower unit will also have 2 half walls coming out from the sides that will be tiled - see sketch attached. The issue I am having is I have not been able to locate a base that has 4 tiling flanges built into it. Have anyone seen a base like this? Are there industry accepted workarounds for tiling without a flange?

3) The wall tile will be within the shower area of course as well as half wall height all the way around to the proposed tub area (and below the window) with I'm sure some sort of accent feature/stripe. Any tips or design ideas you may have about the layout / features / materials / etc are more than welcome. I know somethings will pop up when I get in there but if I can head off a headache now I'd rather. I don't know what I don't know.

Thank you for all your anticipated help - its gonna be a journey.
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Unread 04-13-2020, 04:59 PM   #2
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Welcome back, Art.

The Deflectometer can't help you with your engineered joists, anyway. Those engineered floor structures are almost always designed above the code requirements, but the only way to be sure is to consult the manufacturer's specs.

The softness you feel might be entirely due to the subflooring between the joists with that wide spacing and another layer of subflooring might bring it up to the necessary requirements for a ceramic tile installation.

I would not consider a pre-fabricated shower receptor that did not have adequate tiling flanges. You can probably build a tiled receptor if you improve your subfloor a bit. Do you know what the current subfloor is?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-14-2020, 06:07 AM   #3
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A lack of experience coupled with sometimes misplaced confidence has never slowed me down. I normally proceed by taking things apart to such an extent that I have no choice but to put it all back together.

Yeah, no, you're not going to find a pre-made shower pan with a flange around 5 sides, those "neo angle" bases are typically installed with bottom to top glass on 3 sides. You could possibly get it to work with the right combination of materials and attention to detail, but you might spend more time doing that than it would take to build a shower pan with mud and membrane.

My home was built with adequate floor joists at 16OC, but they were covered with only 5/8" ply. It's definitely bouncy between the joists. Your 3/4" OSB over 24"OC trusses probably feel about the same.
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Unread 04-14-2020, 08:19 AM   #4
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CX - besides the trusses (brand name is SpaceJoist) all the flooring has is the 3/4" OSB. I've attached the spec sheet for the trusses. Not sure what specs to key in on? Are the specs different for making a pan vs tiling an entire floor?

Right now the flooring is linoleum. If Deflecto doesn't do a truss system how does one know what is needed to beef it up to handle tile?

Oooh, I don't know about making my own mud pan - a lot can go wrong and have only 1 shot to get it right. Especially for a newbie! May have to go back and redesign this thing - the half walls were mainly there to install a corner bench in the shower and to make it different. Those 3 glass walled neo's are pretty common in my mind. I may have to move to the inside corner. Thanks.
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Unread 04-14-2020, 08:32 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
Oooh, I don't know about making my own mud pan - a lot can go wrong and have only 1 shot to get it right.
Just one of the best features of a mud shower receptor, Art, is that the material is dirt cheap, labor's free, and you can have as many shots at it as it takes. Rarely takes more than two tries for even a first-time mud man. No rocket surgery involved there at all.

I can't see any detail on the drawing in your photo at all. Is part of it a span table, perhaps?

The joist structure should meet building code if nothing else, and if it does it is satisfactory for a ceramic tile installation. It's the subflooring that is questionable at that joist spacing and I'd recommend a second layer of nominal half-inch exterior glue plywood with no face of grade lower than C on top of what you've got. That would allow you to tile the bathroom floor and be more confident of your shower installation.

Technically you cannot build the receptor over what you've got, but if you're doing a traditional mud/liner/mud receptor, you could almost certainly get by with it for the first 50 years. Using a direct bonded waterproofing membrane over a single mud bed of a minimum of 3/4" thickness it's a bit questionable, but might work.

If you can feel the flex in the floor now, I'd want to add the second layer no matter what else you do in there.

[Edit] What is the depth of your trusses and the width and depth of the chords? Their span tables appear to be available online.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-14-2020, 11:18 AM   #6
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I appreciate your confidence in my mud slinging skills CX. I will need to ponder on that and do more research in the liberry on what it takes to construct a mud receptor. Hmmm.

I assume in addition to the additional plywood underlayment I would also use a decoupler? Need to consider what the increased floor height will do to existing doorway, etc.

The truss depth is 10 3/4" and the cords are 2x4 top and bottom. I agree with what you stated - with steel webbing I doubt its the trusses flexing but rather the subfloor due to the span. I believe I remember reading or hearing the floor was linoleum/carpet rated - not ceramic.
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Unread 04-14-2020, 01:12 PM   #7
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They have the span tables available on line, but they're all from the UK where they speak that foreign language. I can translate the metric dimensions, none of which actually correspond with your stated dimensions, but they're based upon "domestic floor loading" and I don't know what that is over there.

I'm still inclined to think they should meet at least L/360 deflection requirements, though.

In the Shower Construction thread in that Liberry there is information about making deck mud that you might find helpful.

On top of your improved subfloor you would still require a tiling substrate of some kind, but there is no requirement for a "decoupler." You can use a CBU or any of a number of different membranes for that application. And you need nothing under the mud bed for the shower floor other than a cleavage membrane (roofing felt, polyethylene sheeting, etc.) to keep your plywood from sucking moisture out of your deck mud, and 2.5 pound expanded metal lath.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-16-2020, 10:01 AM   #8
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Perhaps these close ups will help (although the close ups aren;t as close as when I previewed on my laptop)?

what thickness underlayment would you recommend in this situation in addition to a CBU (1/4") to accept tile?

would you recommend a uncoupler anyway even if not required? If i use an uncoupler do i also need the CBU? or one or the other but not both? Just trying to do it right but also minimize the height increase.

If i calc'd this correctly and assuming a 5/8" underlayment on top of what i have I will be increasing the floor thickness (non-shower) by 5/8" ply+ 1/4" CBU or uncoupler + CBU thinset (1/16"?) + tile (1/4"?) + tile thinset (1/4"?) or a total of 1.5" - correct?

Looked in the liberry for receptor construction - i think i could handle it afterall.

In summary for the shower receptor it consists of (in this order), subfloor, underlayment, CBU?, plastic sheet, preslope mud, membrane, mortar, thinset, and tile and grout. Thats it?!!!

Thanks as always
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Unread 04-16-2020, 10:32 AM   #9
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You need to verify what you currently have for a subfloor, Art, but if it's adequate (nominal 3/4") you need no more than nominal 1/2" exterior glue plywood with no face of grade lower than C for your second subfloor layer (that is not you underlayment in this application).

On top of that you can use a CBU or a membrane of some sort, but not both.

You could be adding less than 3/4" to your overall height before tile, depending upon what products you elect to use.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-18-2021, 02:45 PM   #10
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Believe it or not, still planning on doing the bath and shower remodel this spring and as I continue to read posts and glean more info, I am gaining more insight and confidence.

Although project liftoff is still a ways out I have some questions I hope the experts can help with.

1) I was originally wanting to install a basket weave tile on the floor and shower floor so they would match. But I recently read where there is a 2" tile requirement for use with ditra that I had hoped to use on the bathroom floor. I preferred to use ditra due to the uncoupling characteristics given the joist truss system unknowns. I have seen pictures of designs that have matching basket weave tile on both shower and room floors. How would one pull this off assuming built to standards? Use CBU in place of ditra is the only way?

2) I was also planning on building a knee wall that would have a glass panel and glass door adjacent to it. I read at this website the optimal design for this is to have the stationary glass panel extend down the vertical portion of the knee wall. Tip #14 here:

https://www.dullesglassandmirror.com...rs-design-tips

The theory is (I think) that if your walls are out of plumb you can make it up via cutting the glass to fit. Agree with this notion? Is this typically done this way? Any down side to doing it this way?

Small incremental steps but progress nonetheless.......thank you.
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Unread 01-18-2021, 02:58 PM   #11
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That's awesome you're looking to do the master remodel. See, I chose to do the master bath remodel before the kids' bathroom because frankly....well the wife is louder in her complaints than the kids are. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

As far as getting in over your head, if you do enough preparation I think you can avoid that sinking feeling. I am about 1/2 way through my master remodel and I've never remodeled anything in my life. I can fix stuff, but never took on anything like this. I planned for 3-4 months and bugged the good folks here as much I felt they could take it.

Only once did I get kind of a sinking feeling and that was when I discovered I had engineered I joists instead of dimensional studs. This came into play as I was recessing the floor under my shower pan. For about an hour I figured I was hosed, but after doing some research and calling the joist manufacturer, I was right back on track and just finished the recessed floor today actually. Just finishing up the shower drain.

Preparation, overthinking and researching will get you to a place where you are confident. And at least you have a bathroom under your belt to lean on for experience and any "what not to do next time" things.
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Unread 01-18-2021, 08:03 PM   #12
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Rome wasn't built in a day, Art.

1. The CBU would be a good option. There are also sheet membranes for crack isolation that would also serve your purpose.

2. Their Tip 14 is saying you want to accommodate your knee wall in the fixed glass panel rather than trying to cut your door to fit around the knee wall. You want all your walls to be plumb, including the knee wall in both directions. While the glass people can accommodate slight variations in plumb, you really don't want to be making the adjustments there. You want your walls as near perfectly plumb as you can get them.

Another very important thing with glass enclosures is that you absolutely do not penetrate the waterproofing layer on any horizontal surface in the wet area. That includes the curb top, the knee wall top, the bench top, etc. If your glass company says they cannot install the glass without mechanical fasteners through the waterproofing layer in any horizontal surface, find another glass company.

As an aside, those are not really knee walls. Those would be pony walls.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-19-2021, 07:46 AM   #13
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Thanks for the responses. Good info about the crack isolation membranes. I was surprised to learn that many are liquid that you "paint" onto the floor. I see all the major players have their own versions. Any recommendations from others which is best or that they have used? I did find one sheet version below. Any thoughts on using it? The install involves using some sort of "glue".

https://www.custombuildingproducts.c...uster-pro.aspx

CX, gotcha 100% on no holes on horizonal sections of the shower. A buddy of mine did his master and the glass installers did mount the door hinge/base on top of the curb with screws He seemed unfazed by it, but I told him it will probably leak down the road. He should have been reading this site!

cbaum - while true I have one remodel under my belt, I can only hope I can remember what I learned during that project!! Good luck to you as you continue on with your remodel.
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Unread 01-19-2021, 09:12 AM   #14
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One way to get started is to build mock structures. A mock shower pan is the easiest to whet the appetite. You can try a few different moisture levels, etc. I did this, but used the wrong mortar, which CX course corrected me.

I found a great way to finish the plumbing was to make the first cut to a pipe to the shower, think “oh God what have I gotten myself into?”, quickly followed by “my girlfriend is going to be PISSED if I don’t finish this now”, then a few hours of disbelief that soldering was working.
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Unread 01-19-2021, 09:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
...then a few hours of disbelief that soldering was working.
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