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Old 12-21-2018, 08:42 PM   #61
cx
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Josh, I don't recommend any of the liquid-applied direct bonded waterproofing products for creating shower receptors. It certainly can be done, but it's far more difficult to ensure the recommended thickness without any weak spots or pin holes. Far better is one of the sheet-type membranes, my current favorite being the USG Durock Shower System membrane. Very simple and with just a little practice it becomes very DIY friendly. All you need is the membrane and and a proprietary drain and a make-it-yourself sloped deck mud bed to precisely fit your shower footprint and drain location. And the waterproofing membrane and drain are available from Amazon.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 12-21-2018, 08:44 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEN3MA
How can an amateur like me get it right?
All of the surface applied membranes come with detailed instructions step by step and very easy to follow. Once you pick a system you will have more specific questions and the guys here will give you more specific answers. Now if you ask which one is the best you are going to get a response for one person that says laticrete is the best or another that durock(shower system) is the best also you will get the response that the traditional mud pan is the best (Pre slope included) It is unwise to build a traditional shower pan without the pre slope and putting redguard over your mud bed and liner is going to cause a moisture sandwich.

Now the sheet membranes are the most expensive of the options followed by the liquid membranes then the traditional mud bed. now the trade offs with the sheet membranes there are build ups in corners and at seams but you don't have to mud and tape before you install them. With the liquid you must thinset and use alkaline resistant mesh tape at all seams before apply the liquid wait to dry then apply the liquid then wait then apply. Now for the traditional you have to notch studs do your pre slope wait then place your liner make folds where you notched making sure not to make any penetrations 3 in below the curb and absolutely no penetrations on the inside or top of the curb. then you have to for the curb with lath and mud and then do your final mud bed.

pick from what ever manufacture you can get your hands on if you are in a hurry, if not read up on the specs of each one and see which one appeals to you.

Personally I like USG shower system but what I don't like about it the build ups but you just work around that problem. In this process I pour a mud bed and I use there drain and their waterproofing membrane and accessories
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Old 12-21-2018, 09:16 PM   #63
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Ok guys. I've turned off the TV and spent the last 2-3 hours watching Sal's Youtube vids. Damn, he is good. I don't trust myself to do the sheet membrane and it's a little out of budget since I have already spent $600+ on glass sliding doors.

I'm leaning more towards doing the traditional method. I feel like I can knock that one out as I have done a mud shower like that 15 years (which was pretty bad) but I didn't use a forum or YT back then. This time I have a plethora of resources.

I have 3 questions on the mud method pre slope prep. First 2 are in regard to the image listed below.

1.)What is that black fabric on the left? And what is it's purpose?

2.) On the right, what purpose does the metal lath serve in the pre slope?

3.) The framing in my shower is metal studs, does this make a difference in the mud method or no difference at all?
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Old 12-22-2018, 12:28 AM   #64
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Black stuff is tar paper aka roofing felt. It is a vapor barrier. Prevents the wood subfloor from drying out the mud prematurely. You want the mud to cure, not dry out. You want it to retain the moisture for like a day or so.

The metal lathe is like rebar. It provides a skeletal structure for the mud to grip, thereby giving it structure and tying it into one body. Makes it less prone to break.

Metal studs don't make much of a difference, but will prevent you from notching them to make the PVC liner totally flush (like you would with wood studs).
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Old 12-22-2018, 03:03 AM   #65
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You'll have to use shims on the studs above the liner to make up for its thickness.
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:07 AM   #66
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I would click on the Liberry in the dark blue bar above and find the shower construction thread. That will help you out.

Don't get in a hurry, post pics of your progress so we can make sure you aren't skipping any steps.
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Old 12-22-2018, 07:07 AM   #67
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Given the metal studs, and thus the inability to notch the studs to accept the pan liner - especially the folds at the inside corners, and also the inability to nail the liner to the studs (you'd have to screw it to the studs and screws have taller heads than do roofing nails), all of which is gong to result in a obvious bump out at the bottom, and the added challenge of blocking between the studs to support the liner and mud bed, integrating the wood for the curb into the metal studs and concrete floor, I would absolutely choose a different method.

I think a novice is going to spend an inordinate amount of time and frustration trying to get the details right with the liner and metal studs - if they can be made right at all in this situation.

IMO, this install is screaming for cement backer or foam board to the floor, foam curb, single slope mud bed covered with membrane (or foam pan covered with membrane if the floor is flat and level enough), joint between wall board and pan membrane sealed with membrane, and then wall board water proofed as needed.

There'll be a bit of build up in the corners but nothing like what you'll have with a liner. The metal studs introduce a complication that will fight you. You could possibly shim out the metal studs but there's still the screw heads to deal with (I think it'll be a challenge to counter sink them without splitting the shims) and you'd have to end the shims short of the liner.

Unless doing this at the absolute lowest cost is the priority doing the liner just won't be worth the hassle IMO.
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Old 12-22-2018, 08:08 AM   #68
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The link on post number 27 eliminates the entire tarpaper, lath ,slope ,element.. not to mention half of the mortar.
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Old 12-22-2018, 10:06 AM   #69
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Dan, Thanks for the help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan(ss3964spd)
bump out at the bottom
What does this mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan (ss3964spd)
I would absolutely choose a different method
That is why I came here. To get your guy's advice. I'm going to go with what you guys think is best. I'm going to post pics and dimensions of everything so I can provide all the necessary info needed to provide a correct assessment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan (ss3964spd)
IMO, this install is screaming for cement backer or foam board to the floor, foam curb, single slope mud bed covered with membrane (or foam pan covered with membrane if the floor is flat and level enough), joint between wall board and pan membrane sealed with membrane, and then wall board water proofed as needed.
I was planning on putting durock as the backerboard. Is that what you are referring to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan (ss3964spd)
Unless doing this at the absolute lowest cost is the priority doing the liner just won't be worth the hassle IMO.
Lowest cost isn't 100% a necessity Just as long as I don't have to break the bank with a more expensive method.

I can add some money to my budget if it means things will go easier and ensure no leakage. If I'm likely to fail with one method due to the metal studs, even though it's cheaper, I can leverage some more money to go an easier, more efficient method.
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Old 12-22-2018, 10:13 AM   #70
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Davy,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy
Don't get in a hurry, post pics of your progress so we can make sure you aren't skipping any steps.
I plan to make a new thread with my attempt to due to his after the holiday. Right now I'm just demoing the bathroom. I will post pictures and dimensions to provide more information.

Thanks for all the help everyone.
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Old 12-22-2018, 10:18 AM   #71
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Eric,

Quote:
Originally Posted by e3
The link on post number 27 eliminates the entire tarpaper, lath ,slope ,element.. not to mention half of the mortar.
I'll take a look at it.
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Old 12-22-2018, 10:25 AM   #72
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If you're still undecided on which methods you want to use, I would get that figured out first. This decision decides which drain you will need to use. Like the others said, the cheapest method takes more work. But, they all will work and last if done right. They all can leak if not done right. So, once your method is decided, we can concentrate on that information.

The bump out at the bottom is caused by the folds in the liner, especially in the corners. To eliminate this problem, we usually will notch the studs for the bottom 10-12 inches which allows the pan to sit back in a little and that allows the CBU to hang straight down without having the liner bulging it out from the backside. You can't notch your studs since they are metal. You would likely have to fur out the studs 1/8 from the pan liner to the ceiling to allow the CBU to get out over the bulges in the liner.

You wouldn't have this problem if you use the surface membrane.
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Old 12-22-2018, 10:36 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy
If you're still undecided on which methods you want to use, I would get that figured out first.
Going to post my pics and relative budget so you guys can guide me in the right direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy
This decision decides which drain you will need to use.
Aren't all drains the same? or does the mud method require a different drain than the sheet method?

I think the mud method will be more difficult for me due to the Metal studs. If it was wood, I would go this route. I'm leaning towards a different method now. I'm going to post pictures in a bit that show the current frame and drain pipe there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy
You wouldn't have this problem if you use the surface membrane.
Just to make sure I'm on the same page. A surface membrane is foamboard, correct? Like the Kerdi system or USG Durock Shower System membrane.

My overall #1 goal is no leakage, price is 2nd. Can't have this leak and I need to install the right the first time.
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Old 12-22-2018, 10:44 AM   #74
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The pan liner creates the bulges. If you use a surface membrane, you eliminate the liner.

Say, if you use Kerdi, it's best to use their drain. The last Kerdi drain I bought was over a hundred bucks. A drain for the pan liner is less than 20 bucks. Less money but more work.
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Old 12-22-2018, 10:46 AM   #75
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Ah, so it's all tradeoffs. Spend more, but easier installation. Spend less, more work.

Does it all balance at the end in terms of dollars/man hours? Seems like it.
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