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Unread 02-19-2019, 06:37 AM   #76
Themus
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I wrote Sal and suggested to him the option of going over the flange or above was a subject of many opinions and good people have used both methods successfully.

He wrote back and bluntly suggested it was the TCNA handbook method or you were doing it wrong.

What is the TCNA handbook? I tried to download it and it appears one must purchase it. I assume it is a book on proper tiling techniques and industry best practices.

If it is the gospel on tiling, does it even address times where the CB can go above the flange? Does the TCNA handbook definitely state over the flange is the only way or did he just pick the portion where he liked the method.
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Unread 02-19-2019, 10:45 AM   #77
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Thomas, the TCNA (Tile Council of North America), formerly TCA, is generally accepted as the industry standard for accepted methods of ceramic tile, and more recently natural stone installation. They publish those methods that have been accepted by the TCNA Handbook Committee. To paraphrase one Dave Gobis:

"The Handbook is a guide for anyone who uses, works with or specifies ceramic tile. It clarifies and standardizes installation specifications for ceramic tile in the United States. It is a quick-reference details that outlines most installation methods and conditions such as exterior and interior floors, exterior and interior walls, ceilings and soffits, bathtubs walls, counter tops, renovations, shower receptors, steam rooms, swimming pools, fire-related and sound-related walls, etc. The book provides a guide on recommended uses, limitations, requirements, materials, preparation by other trades, movement joints, installation specifications and references ANSI and ASTM standards. The information presented in the Handbook for Ceramic Tile Installation represents a consensus of more than 40 national and regional organizations."

The Handbook does not cover every possible material or method that can be successfully used to complete a ceramic tile installation, only those which have been submitted to and accepted by the committee as a consensus opinion. And there are even methods and materials contained therein for which the industry has no testing or standards at all, such as the infamous Uncoupling Membranes.

It is not a perfect nor all-encompassing document, but it is most certainly a good guideline and Sal is on firm ground in using it to back up his preferred methods, but not being specifically mentioned in the Handbook does not preclude other materials and methods from being effective and useful.

That is, of course, my opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-19-2019, 12:35 PM   #78
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Thank you. Very thorough. I am going to get the one board I was short yesterday and finish the framing. It is true and plumb. I'll take a deep breath and if I can find a great solution to the wall issue, I'll add shims out of plywood.

The tub had only a 1/8" flange. This shower base about a 1/4.". The pic above is of the tub and wall plain. Looks fine to me, but with Hardie board being a little smaller thick wise, that helped.
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Unread 02-19-2019, 12:51 PM   #79
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Lol. Just noticed my Dreamline shower base manual, page 17, has the directions and a picture of the CB "install above the tile flanges and secure it to the studs."
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Unread 02-19-2019, 07:56 PM   #80
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What about this idea?

Ironically another website points to this site for a solution to both shimming and the plain with the rest of the wall. What does anyone think? Never read about doing this method until tonight.

"In a lot of my tub surround installs I start with 1/4" drywall, plastic sheet (moisture barrier) then 1/4 hardiboard. This is a fast install, allows you to get something like picture #2 minus the furring strips (which are not fast), the 1/4 inch backer is much easier to get screws in right, and with a total of a half inch you can meet the rest of the room. I read about this install over at the johnbridge forums probably 8-9 years ago and have done at least 20 this way without one issue (2 in my home)."

https://diy.stackexchange.com/questi...the-tub-flange
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Unread 02-19-2019, 09:06 PM   #81
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Thomas, you keep saying plain when I really believe your mean plane. That's what I was trying to point out in post #75.

I would not recommend that method for shower walls and If that fella actually saw that mentioned on these forums I do hope some contradictory remarks were included in the thread.

While it is acceptable to use a moisture barrier behind CBU shower walls as a water containment method, I would not recommend using such a barrier over gypsum drywall in a similar application. Moisture does get through the CBU, especially at the fasteners where it also can get through the moisture barrier. While the amount of moisture penetrating the barrier material is slight and of no consequence when it encounters wall studs, when it contacts gypsum board it could definitely cause it to soften and start to crumble. Just not a good idea. With wood shims, yes. Gypsum drywall shims, no.

Not to mention that no manufacturer of CBUs permits the use of their thinner product on walls. The only exception is one manufacturer of Fiber/Cement board. And the presence of 1/4" drywall behind the CBU would not likely cause those CBU manufacturers to rethink their position on that.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-19-2019, 09:50 PM   #82
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Thank you. Afraid it would be too easy!
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Unread 02-20-2019, 07:34 PM   #83
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Just Venting

So I call my local tile supply store and ask about radius bullnose tile trim. They say they don't have any {yet both Big Box stores do, but not my color.}

So I then call Datile and after three different people they confirm they have it for my color but cannot tell me anything 'technical' about it like is the edge able to cover 5/16." [Necessary shimming distance.]

So I come home and after dinner, I sit on the bathroom floor looking up at my studs and shower base frustrated thinking "this is beyond crazy!" I could have had this done a good month ago if I wasn't torn between those who say the best is having the CB over the flange and those who say it is ok not to.

What makes this so 'frustrating' is you search on the Internet for the answer amongst the best of minds and you think you get an answer like this one and then you understand it is not so by others you equally respect.

Tile Installation: Backer Board Around a Bathtub
Finally – the tile backer/tub lip problem resolved

https://www.familyhandyman.com/tilin...htub/view-all/

Believe it or not, I make quick and effective management decisions at work everyday with little hesitation or thought because I am an expert in my field. But in areas like this, I get lost in the nuisances I am afraid.

If putting up the 6 mil plastic on the studs up to the shower head, then screwing the Hardibacker to the studs is totally acceptable with the same positive results as shimming it out, its the only way I see making this work.

Its been a real challenge just getting the studs lined up evenly and I cannot find any plywood at 5/16" for shimming. And the drywall shims I purchased being pressed cardboard, I would assume should not be used behind the CB board.

Thank you for letting me vent. :-)
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Unread 02-20-2019, 08:37 PM   #84
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That's not the only way, Thomas, but it's an acceptable way so long as your moisture barrier laps over the drain side of the tub's tiling flange. And the bigger limitation is the difficulty in using that method for the very necessary tub leg. It is feasible to attach the poly to the tub using an appropriate sealant and running the CBU down that leg like the rest of the shower, but it can be a little tricky and people usually just don't do it.

That last link you posted is from a guy who obviously thinks moisture cannot penetrate the wall tile installation. Quite possibly a fella who is a member of the Flat Earth Society?

But it's still up to you how you wanna handle your waterproofing issue. All we can do is tell you what the tile industry believes and where the smart money is betting.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-21-2019, 06:30 AM   #85
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Thomas have you considered using one of the inherently waterproof foam boards? Wedi, Kerdiboard, etc? The only drawback is cost but they require no additional waterproofing, are very light and easy to cut, etc. Hanging them is a trivial job and you can use your cardboard shims
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Unread 02-21-2019, 07:02 AM   #86
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I think he'd still have to shim out the foam boards, Jeff, which then leaves him with his current dilemma; where the foam boards (or CBU) meet the drywall. If he doesn't shim the foam boards out, ending them above the flange, then he has to figure out how to seal that gap since there won't be any poly draping over the flange.

Paralysis by analysis is real.

What size tiles do you plan on using, Thomas?
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Unread 02-21-2019, 12:11 PM   #87
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12x12 is what I used in the other bathroom so I am inclined to use the same at least size wise.

I'll remember that saying. Quite appropriate here in this situation. I want to be doing, the over thinking is tiring me out!
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Unread 02-21-2019, 01:29 PM   #88
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I'd forget the extra shimming and end the CBU above the flange. Most of each 12X12 will be stuck to the wall, the short bit that covers the gap will be of no consequence.

Let me know if you want a photo of mine, in place for 12 ish years, for validation.
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Unread 02-21-2019, 06:26 PM   #89
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Sure I would like to see them!

At lunch today I did some more OCD analysis. Tell me if my math is wrong and/or my conclusion.

1. My flange on the shower base is 5/16" or .3125"
2. 3/8" plywood from Lowes (cut to shims) [actual size .344"]
3. Hardi Backer is .42"
4. Total width of plywood shims and Hardi Backer is .344+.420 = .764
5. Drywall is 1/2" or.500
6. Difference in plane is .764-.500 = .264
7. If I put one drywall shim along the drywall edge of 1/16 or .0625
8. Difference minus drywall shim .264-.0625 = .2015
9. Is .2015 that much too worry about? Can tile grout fill that gap along the edge and look good?

Granted, out of a 4x8 sheet of 3/8" knotty plywood I might just get enough good shims. The plywood mentioned isn't their finest, but I don't see any quality stuff in that size.
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Unread 02-21-2019, 10:07 PM   #90
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OR when putting up my new 1/2" inch drywall, add on top of that 1/4 drywall to bring into plane?

I have a doorway on that side so any gotcha on doing that?
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