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Old 10-21-2016, 04:20 AM   #16
Flyingscot
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Okay, one last question and then I'll move on. Since I will be using an de-coupling membrane (Ditra Heat most likely) is having only one layer of sub over the joists okay given that I am installing marble mosaic. The floor will be level, flat and already more than surpasses the deflection requirements.
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Old 10-21-2016, 07:49 AM   #17
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Welcome, Lynne.

If your joist structure actually meets the L/720 deflection requirement, the MIA requires a double layer of subflooring, regardless the joist spacing, for a natural stone tile installation. The earlier recommended subfloor with the first layer recessed between the joists doesn't technically meet that requirement, but it's still better than a single layer.

But it's your house, your tile, your dinero, you can tile over whatever you're comfortable with.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 10-21-2016, 09:13 AM   #18
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Quote:
If your joist structure actually meets the L/720 deflection requirement, the MIA requires a double layer of subflooring, regardless the joist spacing, for a natural stone tile installation. The earlier recommended subfloor with the first layer recessed between the joists doesn't technically meet that requirement, but it's still better than a single layer.

But it's your house, your tile, your dinero, you can tile over whatever you're comfortable with.
I'm glad you chimed in CX. I was waiting for your opinion. My primary goal is to do this right!!!! I am most definitely not trying to cheap out as we all know that always ends up costing more in the end when people go that route. Besides, I was always taught that if you're going to do it at all do it right. With the nature of marble I was concerned that I was asking for cracking with a single layer of ply over the joists. As I said before I can deal with a reasonable transition. I just don't want people tripping when they go into the bathroom. If Ditra, indeed, can take the place of Hardibacker then I should be good as the transition will only be about 1/2" which I believe is entirely acceptable.
I have much appreciated ALL of the answers I've gotten and the vast amount of knowledge on this forum.
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Old 10-21-2016, 01:06 PM   #19
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Deflection has two orientations: along the joist and in-between them; plus, there is a focus point AT the joist where the ply sheets meet that is the main reason for the second layer. I do not believe the 'recessed' first layer has been tested, but I look at it this way - by adding the cleats, that first layer's span is decreased by a significant portion, the length of the joist has been improved in strength, and then, the second layer's bearing surface is now 3x wider from the cleat, not counting the support across the entire surface. If you do it properly (keep all of the surfaces aligned so it is one flat plane), it should be as good, if not better than two sheets on top of the joists. Now, I do not have any test data to back that up.

If it weren't for the fact that natural stone is not 'perfect', it wouldn't matter.

Ditra does NOT help with vertical deflection issues (at least it's not tested for that), but is designed to account for horizontal, differential expansion/contraction issues. IOW, regardless of what you put on top of the ply...the ply (subflooring) must be strong enough to account for the imperfections in the stone. Whatever you use, whether it's cbu, a membrane, high-tech mortar, help to decouple horizontal expansion/contraction issues between the two materials. IMHO, Ditra does a good job on that, especially when you are adding heating, but lots of people have success without it. I think it makes it easier and think of it as a good insurance policy.
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Old 10-21-2016, 01:48 PM   #20
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If it weren't for the fact that natural stone is not 'perfect', it wouldn't matter.
And that, sir, is the rub!

If I was using ceramic it would be a non-issue for me. I've learned here that marble is not homogeneous therefore more prone to cracking. Not only that but so it's darn expensive. I'm very much enjoying this discussion and have already learned so much. Just wait until I ask about Kerdi Board vs. Hardibacker.
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Old 10-21-2016, 02:28 PM   #21
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Whatever you use, whether it's cbu, a membrane, high-tech mortar, help to decouple horizontal expansion/contraction issues between the two materials
If I may ask, is that what something like Customs FLEXBOND is for?

Thanks,
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Old 10-21-2016, 04:04 PM   #22
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There is a method listed in the TCNA guidelines for installing tile directly over 2-layers of ply and it requires mortars with certain ANSI ratings. Don't remember which one(s), but my guess is at least one meeting ANSI A118.11, but A118.15 would probably be better. Then, you'd want to check the specs on the one you select to see if they allow it.
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Old 10-21-2016, 06:59 PM   #23
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Lynn and Jeff, if you'll go to the FAQ you'll find a very brief tutorial on how to properly attribute quotes you post here on the forums. Very simple once you see it and folks won't need to search about to see whom or what you're quoting, eh?
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Old 10-21-2016, 08:00 PM   #24
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Sorry CX. I'm posting from my iPad and it's giving me fits doing the quote thing.
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Old 10-21-2016, 08:47 PM   #25
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Understand, but do check it out when you're on a real computer, eh?
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Old 10-22-2016, 07:18 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by CX
Lynn and Jeff, if you'll go to the FAQ you'll find a very brief tutorial on how to properly attribute quotes...
You got it, CX!


Sorry for the interruption ; not meaning to hijack Lynne's thread with my tangential question, but relevant to Jims comment, according to Custom Building, Flexbond exceeds ANSI A118.4, A118.15 and A118.11 standards (whatever that means
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Old 10-22-2016, 09:19 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Jeff
Flexbond exceeds ANSI A118.4, A118.15 and A118.11 standards (whatever that means)
If you're gonna set ceramic or stone tiles, Jeff, it's important that you're at least familiar with those terms. A118.4 is the category for Modified Dry-Set Cement Mortar, A118.15 for Improved Modified Dry-Set Cement Mortar, and A118.11 for Exterior Glue Plywood Latex-Portland Cement Mortar. You don't need to know all the particulars of each category, but you should recognize the categories so you know what you're paying your nickle for and buy what you need, but not more than you need.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 10-25-2016, 08:10 AM   #28
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Mods, I think I need to change the title of this thread to something that more accurately reflects my project as I have more questions.

After reading nearly every post in this forum and now being fully educated I have some more questions.

I have been researching the Kerdi products and they seem to have some significant advantages for me as I am doing this with minimal help. I am still too chicken to do my own shower pan and not sure I would want to given I'm using marble and I have learned that this can be problematic on a shower floor.

1. I saw that Kerdi board can be installed directly to the wall framing. I need every inch I can squeeze out of this space. I know the manufacturer says it can be done but in your experience is the final product just as good or better as CBU? I'm not interested in shortcuts or cheaping out.

2. Is it really as easy as they made it look on the video? The light weight and easy cutting is extremely attractive to me. As are the products that go with it such as the pre-made niche.

3. Is this achievable by the slightly above average DIYer?

4. Has anyone installed it with a solid surface shower base? After reviewing the install over a tub it looks like it would be pretty much the same process.
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Old 10-25-2016, 08:36 AM   #29
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1.) Schluter makes greats stuff and yes the Kerdi board is very easy to install. It is much better than a CBU in my opinion. I've also started using Wedi products which are on the same level as schluter but a bit faster for me to install.

2) the prefab niche are nice but I usually like to build my own so they fall out right with the layout of my tiles.

3). Yes, just follow the directions and ask if you have questions. Schluter has very good customer service is you ever have questions.

4). I have with acrylic shower pans, and tub surrounds and it's very simple.
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Old 10-25-2016, 09:02 AM   #30
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Thank you Ryan that was very encouraging to hear. Kerdi board sounds almost too good to be true so I wanted to verify.

Along those lines are there any tips to its installation that would good for me to know?
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