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Unread 08-16-2017, 10:59 AM   #31
cx
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1. Don't understand what you're doing with this bonding mortar.

2. I would.

3. I dunno. Can't see any of it from here to judge how bad it might be.

4. An un-bonded mud bed would be my first choice if there are cracks in your concrete. If your cracks have vertical displacement, any vertical displacement, you're taking your chances with any tiling method, but an un-bonded mortar bed is your best bet. It must be a minimum of 1 1/4" thick with welded wire mesh in the vertical center.

You can use minimum 4mil poly sheeting or #15 roofing felt for your cleavage membrane.

5. If you place an un-bonded mud, why would you need SLC? Not understanding the question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
I'm pretty sure the first floor will shear off the foundation before this thing deflects...
I dunno 'bout that, George. You get a full size MIL on a wall mounted terlit and you can have a good deal of torque on that wall.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 08-16-2017, 12:58 PM   #32
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Quote:
1. Don't understand what you're doing with this bonding mortar.
For setting the linear drain? How else would I do it if I set it before the drypack goes in?

Quote:
2. I would.
Okay, so I'm on the right path.

Quote:
3. I dunno. Can't see any of it from here to judge how bad it might be.
There are some cracks in this area outside of the trench joints.

Quote:
4. An un-bonded mud bed would be my first choice if there are cracks in your concrete. If your cracks have vertical displacement, any vertical displacement, you're taking your chances with any tiling method, but an un-bonded mortar bed is your best bet. It must be a minimum of 1 1/4" thick with welded wire mesh in the vertical center.

You can use minimum 4mil poly sheeting or #15 roofing felt for your cleavage membrane.
No vertical displacement at my cracks, slab is ~60 years old. From what I've observed I think all the cracks are shrinkage related. The 1 1/4" ups my finished floor height a little, I should be able to work around that. How am I supposed to handle the areas where I have to taper down to nothing? There are tapered foam pieces that various waterproofing membrane MFR's have for sloped transitions. Think I could use one of those?

Quote:
5. If you place an un-bonded mud, why would you need SLC? Not understanding the question.
See attached image, Hopefully that will clear it up. The SLC I'm using has a technical limitation of needing a different primer once it goes beyond a certain depth. Filling in the floor dip would be a way to get around that.


Quote:
I dunno 'bout that, George. You get a full size MIL on a wall mounted terlit and you can have a good deal of torque on that wall.
fortunately my MiL is not full size. I do have some full size friends, I might fab a block to throw under it when they are over to resolve some of those forces to the floor.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf FLOOR PREP SKETCH.pdf (218.9 KB, 79 views)
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Unread 08-17-2017, 01:56 AM   #33
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Nice thread

Quote:
despite using 16 GA stud my wall hung toilet had a little give (MFR says to double them up anyway).
I have the toto wall carriers installed, how did you note the give, did you install the toilet on the carrier or somehow apply force to the carrier to simulate a toilet and person?
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Unread 08-17-2017, 08:21 AM   #34
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Quote:
I have the toto wall carriers installed, how did you note the give, did you install the toilet on the carrier or somehow apply force to the carrier to simulate a toilet and person?
After setting it I grabbed the top cross member and pushed back and forth as hard as I could. Very slight noticeable deflection, so I beefed it up.

With the toilet sitting much lower the lever arm changes, but generally max deflection is at the midpoint of a span.

How is your carrier framed?
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Unread 08-22-2017, 03:34 PM   #35
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I've been flipping through my office's copy of the TCNA. I'm seeing that unbonded mud beds have a maximum thickness of 2"

This kind of screws up my tub and shower deck. 1/2" per foot for my shower deck and 1/4" per foot for my tub deck puts me around 4" total mud bed height, if 1 1/4" is my starting thickness.

Can this be done in two lifts? Modified admix used? Am I missing something here?
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Unread 08-23-2017, 11:34 AM   #36
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Double float

George,
TCNA states "Mortar beds in excess of 2" thick shall be detailed by the architect." You should just detail it .

Ok, for real. I only recall one job where it was detailed by an architect. The slab was recessed about 4 inches. Netflix headquarters in Los Gatos. It was an on grade slab, the first float was bonded to the slab. The second float had a slip sheet membrane on top of the first float, and then 2x2 wire. It never had any problems. One reason I remember it is one of our estimators missed it in the details. He had just started, and about pooped his pants. It's funny, that contract folder disappeared after the job was done.

Dan
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Unread 08-23-2017, 02:59 PM   #37
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Yeah those ****ing architects don't know anything

I've worked at three companies over my 11 years and while we haven't done a ton of tile work (generally it's all in the spec book-if there is one) there generally isn't much tile detailing going on or it's a standard Laticrete detail. I'm the relative tile and shower waterproofing expert in the office now.

I missed that note in the TCNA. I have been looking around doing lots of googling on thick mud beds (most of it leading back to this very website). I can't seem to find any guidelines for design of mortar beds though. I found an anecdote from John Bridge himself that stated after two inches the minimal shrinkage they experience can cause the mortar bed to curl up.

Dan, your Netflix detail is basically what I was asking to do. Lay the mortar beds in two separate lifts. So here's what I'm proposing, I'll eventually make a section through to help visualize it easier.
  • bonded mortar bed under the foot print of the tub deck. I'll have to work out the depth to see if I need reinforcement.
  • unbonded reinforced mortar bed up to final height in both the tub deck.
  • Research whether I'll need to put an expansion joint in the unbonded bed at the level change over the bonded mortar bed. Tile was going to have a soft joint as the slope changes between shower deck and tub deck.
  • Double checking, there are no concerns with a thick mortar bed and the weight of a 300lb 100 gallon tub on it, right?
  • Question about mortar bed curing. After the initial set is spraying with water to help the portland cement fully hydrate a bad idea. This would be similar to what is done to concrete via burlap, curing compound, or regular watering the first couple weeks.
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Unread 08-23-2017, 05:33 PM   #38
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1. Bonded mud beds don't require reinforcement, George. Whether there might be some advantage in some applications I cannot say.

2. Both the tub deck and what?

3. I don't see a real need there, presuming I have some idea where you're talking about, but I also don't know of a downside to having movement accommodation joints in your mud bed.

4. Right.

5. I don't know that you can say deck mud actually takes an initial set as does concrete and I'd be more concerned with washing the Portland off the sand by watering a new mud bed. I think the best thing you can do for deck mud is to cover it with polyethylene sheeting and leave it alone for a few days. Unless you're planning to cover it permanently with a direct bonded sheet membrane of course, which would be even better. I'm all in favor, of course, of keeping new concrete completely wet for a couple weeks after initial set. And that's whether the framers like it or not.

As for youins architects, I'm not supposed to say nothin' bad about y'all, so I'll say that I think that as a group y'all would make really good base material if a fella had a lot of lawyers to bury.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 08-23-2017, 09:46 PM   #39
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2) both tub deck and shower deck, I omitted a word there

Okay see attached for section showing stepped bonded mortar bed with unbonded reinforced mortar bed above it.
  • If any of you pro's had to do this would you do it this way, or just build a thick unbonded bed?
  • Should I chamfer the corners of the bonded bed steps?
  • Is how I'm handing my reinforcement correct, regarding the 2" overlap that IS not in the same plane. My senses tell me they should be touching.
Also, har har CX.
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File Type: pdf Shower drain & deck section_08.23.17.pdf (147.2 KB, 96 views)
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Unread 08-23-2017, 09:51 PM   #40
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I haven't been following along, but why do you want 1/2" per foot slope on your shower floor?

Cheers, Wayne
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Unread 08-23-2017, 10:34 PM   #41
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I've been flip flopping between 1/4 and 1/2. 1/4 would get me a hair over 2" at far end, negating the need for the stepped bonded beds. I think it would feel better underfoot too.
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Unread 10-16-2017, 10:20 AM   #42
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Wrapping up drywall right now, there's a ton of dust on the concrete floor.

Is vacuuming and 2-3 mop downs the only thing I can do to get all the dust up so that it doesn't interfere with SLC?

I recall reading that sweeping compound is a no-no, is there anything else that I should do?
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Unread 07-23-2018, 09:44 AM   #43
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So project took a short hiatus as welcome baby #2, but in the mean time I've finished everything minus the bathroom and the floor tile.


I pushed back the floor flattening until now and I'm ready to make that happen so I can finally start putting down my tile floors!


Double checking some of my heights I made an error in my initial product purchase amount of Mapei Ultraplan Extreme 2, and I need to buy more. Due to lead time constraints I'm looking at buying CTS Concrete Leveler which is on the shelf at the orange box store, has anyone here used this stuff before? Any impressions


Here are some progress pics:
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Unread 08-05-2018, 09:43 AM   #44
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Finally tile related progess

I flattened my floor, and it went very smoothly. I wrote up some impressions about the products I used and detailed my prep process here:
https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin...d.php?t=125847

I'm installing large format tile so I'm trying my best to hit 1/8" over 10' per TCNA req. I can only find a 8' straight edge so I'm heavily overlapped my calibrations as I checked post SLC pour to check for humps. What kind of local brick and mortar place would carry a 10' straight edge? I've called some of the bigger tile and concrete suppliers and no dice. My only option seems to be purchasing online and paying and triple digit shipping fee because it's too long.


Fortunately all the tiles I've checked are very flat with no perceptible hump.


I've ground down my humps and am ready to start installing my Ditra-Heat-Duo with Schluter AllSet (their modified version, approved use with all their applications). Thanks to my Schluter rep for the special architect pricing .

The only question I have is that one of self levelers I utilized dried to a glossy finish. It absorbs water, I just want to make sure I don't need to abrade the surface at all to ensure good adhesion with my thinset. From everything I've read here, I don't think I do. But I wanted to ask the question to confirm.


Some more progress pics too.
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Unread 08-05-2018, 11:59 AM   #45
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George, I've used SLC's a few times and have never abraded it. I'm not an expert on it.

I have bought straight edges from masonry supplies. Where are you located?
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