Aztec's Bathroom Remodel

[Aztec]

Hello all,

First time poster, long time reader. I'd like to start by saying that the sheer amount of knowledge, expertise, and wisdom on these boards is staggering. I'm glad there are folks willing to share their skills and techniques in a public forum!

Down to brass tacks: I'm remodeling a bathroom, and intend to do a complete custom shower install. So far, I've torn out the old tile (wall & floor), backerboard, and much of the drywall in it. My house is a single slab ranch, and because I've read that a flat floor is key to a proper tile job, I went ahead and poured an SLU. (which turned out great!)

Then, after cleaning the existing studs up, I checked to see how plumb, level, and square they were. This is where "problem-central" reared it's ugly head!

The studs are all 2x3's. The bottom plates are square, and in-plane. The top plates, however, are far from it! Based on my research, I figured the best way to make things proper (before installing my 1/2" CBU) would be to sister-in some fresh studs. So, I started doing just that.

Now, as much as I hate to admit it, I'm real new at this, so first-and-foremost, I'm not too sure if what I've done so far is particularly "decent" or not.

Second, I read somewhere that CBU's need to be screwed-in a minimum of 1/2", to a maximum of 1" from the edges. Well, I got a bit of an issue with that, seeing as one of my walls is nearly an inch outta plumb at the top plate; leaning away from the bottom plate.

A picher's worth a thousand words, so I'm tole...

Here's the corner in-question, with a few of the studs I've sistered-in. (Note that the existing studs were FULL of this awful black "tarry" adhesive, AND the previous tiler tried to wet-float the previous CBU's plumb and in-plane on the studs, so I went ahead and removed the vast majority of that with a grinder, a hammer, a chisel, a whole lotta elbow grease, and finally an electric planer. Also please note that I fully intend to continue sistering each stud along the wall in question, and finally add blocking for the gap created at the top plates, but wanted to try for some advice here, first.)





Here's a closeup of the corner. Notice the blocking I tried to remove with an oscillating multitool. Also notice how short on space I am for sister studs at the corner:





Next up, we have a detail shot of the stud I sistered onto the corner. Yer just gonna hafta trust me that the new stud is plumb & square. Only, it juts-out nearly an inch at the top plate, gradually reducing to zero at the bottom plate:





Here's a closeup of the top:





Just to show how outta whack the existing studs were, here's a shot of the distance between perpendicular corner stud, to the edge of my sistered stud, near the top plate:





and here's the distance of the same, only near the bottom plate:



So, now comes my attempt to organize the million-and-one questions I have bouncin' around in my head...

1. Is 1" really the maximum distance I can use for an edge screw for the CBU to a stud? I wish to do things as best as I can, to make this install last for decades. I figure that I might as well do my darnedest while I got the studs exposed...
2. If I really need to have a stud within 1" of the corner, what'd my best course of action be in fixing that corner stud?
3. Is it alright if my studs are plumb on the face the CBU will attach-to, but leaning out-of-plumb along the axis of the plates? I realize that this will make lining-up the screws for the CBU dead-center on the underlying studs a bit harder, but perhaps this is a "c'est la vie" kinda sitch?
4. Is there anything I've done wrong, or could do better?
5. Is there any advice of which I might not be specifically asking about, but seems pretty obvious to y'all, and if so, can ya teach me?

I'm super grateful to have you all here, and that this place even exists. It really is a wonderful resource, so I'd like to thank y'all in advance.

Thanks!

[cx]

Welcome, Phil.

Please put a geographic location into your User Profile. I'm curious where that sort of construction is common, if indeed it is.

When it comes to remodeling work, sometimes a fella bends a rule or two, sometimes he might even break one so long as he compensates for the technical deviation. Bottom line: If you're not prepared to remove everything and start over (in this case the entire house would seem to qualify), you do the best you can with what you've got.

You're starting with a situation in which your nominal 3" stud walls don't meet the deflection requirements for a ceramic tile installation. Your added studs will help that situation if done properly and I have no doubt you intend to continue with the project in any case.

1. In a corner such as you've made there I would not hesitate to fasten my CBU to the framing as close to the corner as possible and call it good.

2. See #1.

3. So long as you end up with studs spaced no wider than 16" on center and so long as those studs are plumb and in plane, you should be good. Not being able to fasten them to the top plates is less than ideal, but a 3" overhang of your CBU in that location is not likely to be a game changer. You could add some blocking up there if you want, but it's not an area that will see a lot of traffic.

4. Probably.

5. Find out why you have 2x3 walls and 'splain us.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[jadnashua]

You could make some shims and tack them to the lower (old) studs in the corner so you'd have something to screw into and keep things flat without breaking off, but it may not be worth the effort. a bunch of tapered door shims would let you get varying thicknesses without too much trouble.

[Aztec]

Well am I glad fer you to see me, cx! (heard my favorite cajun cook Justin Wilson say this once, loved it, so I'm using it!)

I consider you a legend around these parts, cx. Not surprising you're a moderator, then!

I'm from the suburbs of Chicago, Illinois (and I should have my geographic profile info set, now ^_^ ).

Got a single-slab ranch, built in the early '60's, right about 1963-4, by "Hoffman Homes" (sp?), I believe.

Far as I can tell (again, all based on what I've read here-n-there...) the corner stud (or any of the axially-aligned studs...) in question on that wall ain't load-bearing. (Then again, I don't know much!!!) However, if that's indeed the case, well... I'm not opposed to, say.. taking a sawzall with a decent "fancy" blade and working a lil magic to remove said pre-existing stud, 'n replacing it. Far as I can tell, if I do wanna replace it, I should cut my replacement stud so it fits snug 'n tight between both plates, ideally using a hammer to 'tap-tap-tap' it into place. Orient it real proper-like with a square and level, then use some 8d nails to toe it into the sole, followed by the top plate. (... Or, should I use screws? There's different camps on this...)

If this happens, is the difference in lumber gonna make a difference, assuming this ain't a load-bearing wall? I've read that the lumber made back in the day was usually grown au-naturale, whereas today's lumber is "encouraged to grow as quick as it can," making for much wider rings - and so giving greater potential for twisting, bowing, and crowning...

On top of this, I'd still sister the replaced stud, so all my sisters' centers are spot-on 16".

Would shimming the non-corner, sister studs (axially-aligned) on that wall serve me towards having plumb studs on both axes?

Basically, what I'm tryna say is that I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make this structure the best it can be, by mine own hand. (Labor of love status.)

Thanks again!

(Many edits! To answer your question 'bout why my studs are 2x3's... Well, I can only imagine that the original builders cut some corners - in more ways than one. Whether or not I can find out if that's the case, or even how, I don't know. Is there a way to find the original architect's plans for such an old abode?)

[Aztec]

Originally Posted by jadnashua

You could make some shims and tack them to the lower (old) studs in the corner so you'd have something to screw into and keep things flat without breaking off, but it may not be worth the effort. a bunch of tapered door shims would let you get varying thicknesses without too much trouble.

@jadnashua Thank you for the help!

I'm not opposed to doing just that.. however, I'm concerned that the walls in-question are so much outta sorts, that perhaps a full replacement may be in order. I worry about messing with shims when going from 0 to nearly a full inch over an 8' span!

Considering that solution, I don't believe door shims would be a decades-lasting solution, nevermind ripping my own shims with a circular saw. (I've seen some folks with mad circular saw skills, but I just ain't there, yet!)

[cx]

Justin Wilson. Haven't heard him since way back in my youth and that was a long, long time ago. Most enjoyable fella.

I'm no longer technically a moderator here, I just help out when I can.

Looks like your Hoffman Homes is still in operation around Chicago and, like other volume tract builders, would be likely to be cutting a whole lot of corners in the quality of their construction.

I doubt they could get approval to use 2x3 walls as structural support walls, but stranger things have happened and I see that your walls do have a double top plate. No way to tell if they're intended as structural without you look at what's above and below them, though.

For blocking for the missing nailing structure above your stud tops, you needn't have a full length tapered piece. Just a block of some sort (I always prefer plywood for such applications) in the missing space directly above the stud would suffice. And, again, I think you could get by with nothing there and still have your tiled wall live a full and happy life. But see my warranty information below. Probably still better than you got from Mr. Hoffman.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[jadnashua]

When using tapered door shims, you generally use them in pairs so that the two outside surfaces are parallel...but, if you can cut some blocks, those would work, too, or just wing it. It's not like you're going to be walking on the wall...

[maui19]

I faced a situation like yours. I demoed a bathroom in a 65-year-old house. Nothing was plumb, flat or level. I had a bunch of studs that were rotted and twisted (the twisted ones were the hardest). I ended up using a combination of sistered studs and drywall shims to get everything right. I did whatever I had to get things square, plumb and flat. It took a while and was a PITA, but I ended up working out pretty well. After putting up the Kerdi-board and tile, I now have a shower that is plumb and level in a bathroom that is neither. Of course, that has created other issues, but that's a whole 'nother story. ;-)

[Aztec]

First of all, thanks again fellas!

Can a mod please rename this thread to "Aztec's Bathroom Remodel" ? I'd like to keep all my questions rounded up in one spot.

I'll be posting a major photo update a little later today, showin' what I done did so far.

'Till then, I have a buncha leftover Henry Feather Finish after flattening the floor. As my 'luck' would have it, there are some dips in my CBU wall panels - which are already taped and mudded. Now, say I refuse to rip down the offending panels. Is the feather finish appropriate for filling these dips? The dips are a maximum of 1/8", though their areas are rather large. Not so large that I can't span them with my 4' level.

The greatest offending dips happened where - y'all mighta guessed it - I didn't sister new studs-in. This is outside the shower area, as I decided last minute to extend the field tile across one of my back walls. It was a bad move, and I'm paying the price, but it's my bathroom and I don't mind the extra time it'll take fer me to flatten them dips out.

So, since I'm set on building the dips up, would the feather finish be an appropriate product to use? I also have some Custom Products "Natural Stone & Large Tile" medium-set at my disposal, as well as more Custom "FlexBond" (which I used to tape and mud the CBU seams).

I used some FlexBond to build up some off-spots on my curb (which was made with wire lath and fat mud - stucco base coat to be precise, as according to Roger the Floor Elf's handy little guide), and good lord is the FlexBond sticky. I'm worried it may be *too* sticky to fill my wall gaps nicely. I noticed the feather finish product on the floor was *much* easier to use, and I was able to screed it with some angled aluminum to fill my floor gaps.

Much more info to come later in the day today, but 'till then, I'd sure appreciate hearing what y'all think.

[cx]

The Feather Finish would be an appropriate product.

The thinset mortar would not.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[Aztec]

Thanks cx!

Okay, now to post all my photos up to this point. There's 60 of 'em. I've already resized them. I know, I know, y'all would rather have me host 'em here, but I'm not gonna do that. Imgur is a solid host, and I've used it fer years with no problems. If it were to go down, well... Then I'd reupload 'em here.

Anywhoo, here we go. From the beginning, up to today:

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Here's the beginning, with the old tile still in the bathroom. Had to replace 60 year old pipes, so the plumbers jackhammered through this bathroom, thru to the bathroom behind that back wall, all the way to the front yard. This is what they left me with.

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Was gonna go with one of these here fiberglass shower pans, before I decided I'd rather dive right in to doin' one myself.

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Demoed the walls, so much thinset behind the old CBU's!

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Removed old ceramic floor tile, and applied the first coat of SLU Primer.

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Second coat of primer is dry, ready to spread the SLU! Put up a perimeter dam of automotive weatherstripping, also 'round the floor plumbing fixtures. I went with a cheapo option fer the SLU: Sika Self Leveling Underlayment. Hindsight is 20/20, I woulda not only gone with a better product, but I'd have mixed it a bit thinner than I did. At least I learn real good.

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Had my brother mix the second bucket of SLU, and TRIED ter maintain a wet-edge. I didn't have a spiked roller, or spiked shoes; only a squeegee. You can see where the first pour on the right meets the second, left pour.

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SLU dried, purty flat, but it wasn't perfect!

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Finished removing drywall, sistering studs, and most of the prep on the walls for the shower area. Them red bricks were bricks I applied some RedGard to. I decided to ditch them bricks, and go with just regular pavers, so don't pay 'em any mind.

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Here's all o' mine sistered studs, as well as blocking.

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Right corner shot of sisters and blocking.

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Again, pay them red bricks no mind...

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Here's the other part of the bathroom entrance wall. My house is rather ****ed, as can be seen. Anyways, the studs on that wall were only outta plumb to the left side of the doorway, reducing down to zero by the right corner.

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Had an old floor HVAC register hole which needed fillin'. Covered the old duct opening with duct tape, then applied expanding foam as a "casing" 'round the perimeter of the hole. After that cured, I poured-in some regular old concrete.

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Used some floor patch compound to cover the mess underneath.

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Tiles chosen! 12"x24" rectified porcelain, with bullnose.

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Matching hexagonal tile for the shower floor.

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Cutting and dry-fitting the stock pavers for the curb.

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Layin' out my pavers.

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Set the first course of bricks with modified thinset. (Note: I have no idea what I'm doin' with any of this project, literally flyin' by the seat of my pants. I feel lucky I didn't soil 'em thus far.)

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Level first course.

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Another shot of the first course.

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Second course of curb bricks laid. Still level.

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Preparing to lay the pre-slope with deck mud.

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Sandy, cementitious snowball, easily crumbled, quite dry.

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Using FlexBond modified thinset to bond the deck mud to my slab.

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Perimeter (level!) and of an appropriate height/slope from the drain: 1/4" per foot.

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More Preslope.

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Filling-in the preslope.

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Finished preslope! God, was I proud of this!

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Checking slope.

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Detail shot of slope.

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Trying the liner with duct tape.

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Screwed-in my first liner.

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Marked my sistered studs with masking tape for later reference while I could.

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Flood testing the first liner. I say first liner 'cuz the first liner failed the flood test! The culprit: I used WAYYYY too much adhesive on one of the corner dams, which squeezed out, puddled, and ate a hole right in the corner.

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NEW LINER, passed the flood test, this was the failing corner from above. All is well with this one!

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Lath in place. NO PUNCTURES ON MY LINER FER THE CURB WHATSOEVER!

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Top mud bed poured, lookin' good, feelin' good. The tile comes up over the top of the drain by a hair.

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Dry fitting shower floor tile.

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Purty dry top bed. Formed the curb with fat mud/stucco base coat. Real interesting stuff.

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Put some cardboard shims up to account fer me not notchin' my studs all proper-like.

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Startin' ter put up the CBU panels.

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More CBU.

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Even more CBU.

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Finished puttin' up CBU!

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Final shot of fresh CBU.

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Taped.

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Second shot of tape.

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Final shot of tape.

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Began mudding with modified thinset.

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Mudding seams.

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Final mudding of seams shot.

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Touched up curb with some modified thinset.

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Began patching the floor with Henry Feather Finish. The lil sharpie lines you see are perimeters of low spots. Afterwards, I went in with a diamond-cup grinder wheel and plenty o' PPE, and fixed this right up. You can see some RedGard 'round the filled floor register, 'cuz the second coat of patch (didn't use the feather finish here, I used some other not-so-good, premixed product) I added was a lil too thick. It developed shrinkage cracks. So, I troweled some redgard on.

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Me, after usin' the diamond-cup grinder wheel. Dust city.

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Floor is flat as a carpenter's dreamgirl, only not as easy to nail.

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Flat floor topside.

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Layout 1 (All darker colored tiles are stock/uncut. The greenish area is where I'll put a niche.)

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Layout 2

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Layout 3

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Question: Fer my layout, do y'all suppose I should balance the bullnose trim as is shown in the above last three photos, or should I run 'em full from the top down, having a single cut at the floor?

[Aztec]

1) If I were to put two coats of RedGard down on my bathroom floor (concrete slab with ~1/2" of SLU on top, NOT the shower floor) and wanted to lay 18" x 3" porcelain planks, would I use a modified, or unmodified thinset? Any particular recommendations made by Custom Products?

2) Is it possible to use a lash style leveling system on the aforementioned plank tiles? I understand there must be ~95% thinset coverage on the tile, and that the lash clips must be positioned away from the edges/corners a bit... So what's the smallest size tile where a lash-style leveling system could be properly used?

3) My field tile for the walls is large format, rectified porcelain, highly polished. What would a good solvent-based impregnating sealer be? I understand that polished porcelain actually has more "holes" opened up on the polished face, so I'd like to seal those. On top of this, I tested a piece with my grout, (Mapei FlexColor CQ) and sure enough, the quartz *slightly* scuffed the finish of the tile. I believe a sealer will also help prevent this?

[ss3964spd]

Aside from me wondering why you want to RD the concrete floor, I'm pretty sure you need a modified thinset mortar to stick those tiles to RD. Versabond or Flexbond (both Custom products), but I'm certain the RD instructions will verify.

I'm sure using the LASH system will work and, depending on how bowed those 3X18's are, might even be necessary. Grab two of those tiles, place them face-to-face, see how much they rock.

I can't say about the sealer. If the tile was polished after being glazed and fired, maybe. It it's just a highly reflective glaze I'm inclined to believe otherwise. Regardless, I don't think a sealer would protect the tile from scuffing by the grout.

I also used a rectified porcelain with a high gloss finish, and grouted with an epoxy grout. Not a mark on them.

[cx]

1. Custom requires a polymer modified thinset mortar meeting A118.4 for bonding to RedGard.

2. The mortar coverage required in your application is an average of not less than 80 percent with good coverage on all edges and corners. 100 percent is what you really want, but 80 percent is what's required.

3. You and Dan appear to be discussing different finishes for those tiles. Glazed porcelain would not be a problem for cleaning grout or bonding mortar from the surface. Polished porcelain, on the other hand, can definitely be a serious problem in that regard. Which one you got?

My opinion; worth price charged.

[ss3964spd]

Appears Dan needs to research the exact differences between glazed and polished porcelain.