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Unread 07-29-2020, 07:47 PM   #16
jadnashua
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The key on the lumber is when is it treated...you want the treatment, then kiln drying, not the other way around, well, actually it ends up being dried twice so there is room for the treatment to penetrate. All lumber needs to be KD, but not all treated lumber is KDAT unless it is specifically stamped and labeled as such.
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Unread 07-29-2020, 07:56 PM   #17
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Well, they list their PT lumber under two categories: Green or Kiln-Dried. The ones i linked to are PT KD (which I assume is the same as KDAT?)
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Unread 07-29-2020, 08:11 PM   #18
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I do not think that is a fair assumption, Dan.

I'll be curious to see what you find when you check the moisture content. Actually, it's usually enough just to lift a piece and judge how heavy it is to determine if it's been properly dried after treatment.

And I gotta agree with Jim. I've never seen a piece of KDAT lumber that didn't have a plastic tag on it saying what it is, but perhaps that's only the Houston facility that does that.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 07-29-2020, 08:16 PM   #19
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I'll bring the moisture meter with me. You may have to bail me out if they arrest me for suspicious behavior.

BTW, for a DIY'er who is not in a rush to complete a job, is KDAT really required?
When I re-drywalled this entire house, I got regular 2 x 2 PT furring strips from HD. I weighed them down in the house under blocks (and blocked the sides as well) and then let the AC (which runs here 24 x 7!) do its job. It definitively takes a few days sometimes a week or so depending on how wet it is but in the end the moisture content does go all the way down. Of course it only works if you have a moisture meter but they are not expensive. Not all end up stick straight but I don't think i ever not ended up using one.

That also works right?
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Unread 07-29-2020, 08:21 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
...but in the end the moisture content does go all the way down.
All the way down to what?

Dan, I'd be terribly surprised if you could actually get a piece of pressure treated wood from its off-the-truck state to below 19 percent moisture content in just a few day in your air conditioned room. Even a piece as small as a 2x2. In fact, I'd be willing to wager large dinero against the possibility.

What sort of meter are you using?
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Unread 07-29-2020, 09:09 PM   #21
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This one: https://www.homedepot.com/p/General-...-MM8/205519129
Manual/Spec (PDF): https://images.homedepot-static.com/...cdda635293.pdf

I picked it up a few years back off the shelf at HD. Measures wood, hard wood, and concrete.
Its been a while since I used it but it provides a nice digital read-out of the moisture level, a green/amber/red zone indication, and alert beeps that really wakes you if you are sleepy.

I put it to my forehead and it indeed confirmed we are made mostly from water...
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Unread 07-29-2020, 09:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
In fact, I'd be willing to wager large dinero against the possibility.
No need to wager $. I'll settle for your advice here...
You are underestimating my 5 TON Rhem A/C.
Should we do a science experiment?
Tell me how long you want me to dunk a piece of wood in water (overnight will suffice?) and I promise to post daily shots of the moisture meter. You'll see. Its been a while since I did this but it is about 10% to 15% reduction a day.
Some of the HD PT stuff was literally dripping wet.
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Unread 07-29-2020, 10:18 PM   #23
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So thinking about it, the whole dunking in water test is probably stupid.
I have no idea what is the rate at which different woods absorb water. If the test is conducted with PT wood I have laying around, it has already been treated to repel water.
In a home setting you wouldn't be able to replicate the pressure in which the mfr. "injected" the treatment into the wood.
So assuming this is a quality moisture meter (it does say professional on it so it must be good right? ), perhaps it simply make sense to get some standard PT HD lumber, and then show you the declining moisture level over time.

Why is it far fetched? Don't they similarly say to let wood acclimate on the job site before you use it?

Either way, apologies if I am coming across as argumentative. Just wanting to learn.

And if I do come across some KDAT lumber around here, I am definitely sticking with that. No reason not to...
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Unread 07-29-2020, 10:21 PM   #24
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The advice here is always free, Dan, been that way these twenty years and more. The value of my portion of it clearly stated.

You using a pin-type meter?

Soaking a piece of wood in water won't approximate the condition of pressure treated wood. Let's just agree that I think it's not a good idea to use that wood behind a ceramic tile installation unless it measures at least below 19 percent moisture content and preferably a good bit lower than that.

We rarely use those concrete blocks for exterior walls in residential construction in my part of the country, so I honestly don't have much real experience with that sort of wall. Your application would be one of the few where I would think one of the foam backer boards might be really useful, providing you could accommodate any wiring like I see in one of your photos. Bonding the foamboard directly to the CMU wall seems an inviting possibility.

I think I might even be inclined to glue strips of such foamboard in sufficient thickness to the CMU wall as furring strips for the final foamboard wall. Stuff's pretty grossly expensive for most applications in my view, but that might be an exception.

Just how much trouble do you folks usually have with moisture coming through those walls?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 07-29-2020, 11:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
You using a pin-type meter?
It is a pinless type meter and a few $ more than the pin-type ones they carry.
I am using this one (pic a few posts above): https://www.homedepot.com/p/General-...-MM8/205519129
Manual/Spec (PDF): https://images.homedepot-static.com/...cdda635293.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Let's just agree that I think it's not a good idea to use that wood behind a ceramic tile installation unless it measures at least below 19 percent moisture content and preferably a good bit lower than that.
Agreed! This is exactly what I have done when I dry-walled the entire house. Again, assuming this is a reliable meter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
We rarely use those concrete blocks for exterior walls in residential construction in my part of the country, so I honestly don't have much real experience with that sort of wall. Your application would be one of the few where I would think one of the foam backer boards might be really useful, providing you could accommodate any wiring like I see in one of your photos. Bonding the foamboard directly to the CMU wall seems an inviting possibility.
Bingo! This is exactly what I did in the entire house as well (see attached pics). The only difference is that around here they tend to mostly put the foamboard between the furring strips. They also tend to use fi-foil (kraft faced foil) as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Just how much trouble do you folks usually have with moisture coming through those walls?
So this is really interesting. They build homes differently here (AFAIK - I don't build homes for a living). Up north the premise is to seal your home. I think you meant to block moisture coming in at all cost. In fact, I believe up north they put moisture barrier through the entire house just like you recommend to do in showers. Did I get this right?
Down here the premise is different. The house has to "breath". You do not use moisture barrier through the entire house at all. The A/C works 24 x 7 x 365 (set to your comfortable room temperature) and it is constantly sucking moisture out of the air. I have a 5 Ton unit + 3.5 tons unit. They drain to the back of the house and its like a running faucet.

I invested in the foamboard not because of the moisture but for the noise reduction. I can't hear the neighbors though the shared townhome walls anymore so it was worth every penny.

So the above holds true for the house in general but I contemplated what to do with the shower insulation quite a bit. An entire foam board will act as a 2nd moisture barrier. Even putting it between the furring strips makes me nervous since there is always a horizontal furring strip at the top and bottom that locks everything in. The fi-foil they use down here also makes me nervous that it is not as effective moisture barrier in the first place as poly or felt (plus I hate it in general). In one of the other showers in the house I used unfaced insulation. I know you can use faced insulation and puncture the heck out of it to defeat its moisture blocking capabilities as well. All of this is moot anyway now, since there isn't whole lot of insulation you can do in 3/4" thick furring strips so I am probably going to skip doing any altogether.
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Unread 07-30-2020, 11:25 AM   #26
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The surface will be the first area to dry...so, without a pin type, I'm not sure how accurate your reading would be on the piece overall.

PT lumber doesn't necessarily repel water...it is designed to inhibit it from rotting if it does get wet. Plus, the sawdust and just hand contact with the stuff can be nasty. Any wood tends to curl, warp, and otherwise change shape when it dries. Fasteners may not be enough, and tile, being brittle, can't handle much of any movement at all. Either the bond breaks, or the tile, or both.
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Unread 07-30-2020, 12:06 PM   #27
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Dan, I wasn't recommending the foam board as insulation of any kind, although you get some of that with it. I'm recommending one of the foam backerboards that is also your waterproofing and tile substrate for your shower walls.

I'm not quite understanding Jim's point about the moisture meters. It's my contention that a pinless meter is going to be much more useful in this application and more accurate as well. The pin meters measure the electrical resistance near the surface of the wood, which is not really want you want to know. The pinless meter is gonna be measuring a quarter-inch or more below the surface and will tell you more of what you're really looking for. Both types require some finesse in their application and interpretation, but a fella can get a feel for his particular meter over time and you'll want an adjustment chart for the type of wood you're measuring. It's especially handy to have a known dry piece of the same material for comparison.

I have no idea how accurate that tool you have might be.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 07-30-2020, 03:09 PM   #28
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So...
I suspect the lowes PT lumber I linked to is not KDAT. Wishful thinking on my part. I did some additional research today.
  • Lowes pressure treat their lumber with a product called ecolife. It is made by a company called Viance.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by / from viance website
    Ecolife is available at 84 Lumber, independent lumberyards across the country and at Lowe's under the Severe Weather brand.
    Ref: https://www.treatedwood.com/products/ecolife
  • So I called them up and asked if the PT lumber that they process for lowes is KDAT. They said that no and can't be since they don't have kilns! They said is it kiln dried before it gets to them so that their treatment can penetrate the wood.
  • Also, check out this comment a user left on the lowes website:

    Response to the Kiln Dried comment on this site

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by / from the lowes website
    Lowe's Pressure Treated Lumber is NOT advertised as Kiln Dried After Treatment" (KDAT) which is what is being inferring. All Lowe's Pressure Treated Lumber is advertised as KDHT19 (marked on the mill stamp on each piece of lumber) which indicates that the lumber was Kiln Dried / Heat Treated to 19% moisture or less before treating. Bottom line - All Lowe's Pressure Treated Lumber is Kiln Dried BEFORE treating, but NOT Kiln Dried after treatment. No False Advertising There. Not advertised as KDAT.
    Ref: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Severe-Weat...Lumber/4564784 (search for KDAT in the user reviews)

So that's that. If I do truly find KDAT lumber down here I would let you know since by now it seems like a news worthy event nothing short of spotting a unicorn. And if I don't, I ain't freaking out since PT is ultimately what the pros use down here.
Where is Brian AKA ceramictec when you need him?

Ready for it? CX you were right, KDAT lumber is rare (at least in big box stores)!
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Unread 07-30-2020, 03:27 PM   #29
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KDAT stuff costs more since it needs to be kiln dried twice. People that shop big box stores are more into convenience and price than maybe quality.

My thinking, maybe incorrect, on a pin type meter is that you can stick it into the wood some rather than making an assessment from just the top surface. But, if the pinless ones can 'read' below the surface, I've learned something.
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Unread 07-30-2020, 03:45 PM   #30
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The pinless meters are relying upon electromagnetic sensing of the difference in density, I think, Jim. Part of the reason the results need to be adjusted for the wood species being tested. Where an outdoor piece of dry pine might register 10 or 11 percent in my climate, a similar sample of Ipe is likely to peg the meter on the same scale at 30 percent. Takes some adjustment of your thought process at times, too, and doing a lot of testing with your particular tool is most helpful in learning to interpret its readings.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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