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Unread 06-21-2020, 10:24 AM   #16
buldogge
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Next Question...

Since CX has "pushed" me towards a mud pack...

My wife doesn't want to be "stepping on the drain"...

Is there any real disadvantage to offsetting the drain to the left end of the shower (partially, not all the way to the wall), below the knee wall "ceiling" area, if I maintain a level perimeter...??

I'm leaning towards just using the 4" round Kerdi-Drain that has various grates/covers available.

-Mark
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Unread 06-21-2020, 10:39 AM   #17
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Putting the drain somewhere other than that center while keeping a level perimeter gives you more dramatic slopes where the drain is closer to the walls. That can be difficult to tile without lippage and can be much more difficult depending upon the size and shape of your shower footprint and the size and shape of your tiles, none of which we know.

Mrs. Mark has a fear of the shower drain monsters, perhaps?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 06-21-2020, 11:34 AM   #18
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Understood...

Shower is rectangular, 65" W x 55" D

Floor tiles will be smaller mosaic, of some kind, from what I've gathered.

I have put the shower heads offset from true center, to "visual center" based on the optics of the 45deg knee wall "ceiling".

In the end, the drain will either be at visual center (which is offset to the right, actually), or will be pushed to the left to get it "out of the way".

-Mark
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Unread 06-21-2020, 01:12 PM   #19
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Pics...

Some pics...Subfloor/underlayment is not yet laid in area, as I haven't set the drain position/p-trap.

I just threw some in there as a visual aid for the wife...

TA
-Mark
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Unread 06-21-2020, 05:36 PM   #20
jadnashua
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You can figure out the required drop when the drain isn't centered fairly easily...take the measurement from the furthest corner to the desired drain location, then calculate how high that outer rim of the pan must be. Say it was 36". That would make the outer rim 3/4" higher than the drain (note, not the thickness of your pan, but the delta height difference). Now say that you will have the drain 18" from the near corner. That means that in that 18", you still have to drop 3/4", which is 1/2" per foot. That's the maximum the industry suggests for a slope in a shower. Doable, but you may not like it.

The easier, but not cheapest way would be to do a linear drain at one end or edge of your shower. Should you go that way, the least expensive combination of drain and grate is to use a tile-in grate cover which is also available for their standard drain.

The drain doesn't have to be centered, but if not, that means custom cuts for most of the bottom row. Easier to hide if you use a profile, as that would give you a visual straight edge, and if you choose the one with a pocket, let you hide that cut as well.
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Unread 06-21-2020, 07:22 PM   #21
buldogge
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I have no issue with doing any of the calculations.

I'm just interested in real life experiences from those with a lot more practical experience than I.

Currently, I'm leaning towards putting a regular 4" kerdi-drain, just off center at "visual center"....We're only talking an 8" offset, or so.

Using 3/4" of drop will give appropriate slope in all directions...level perimeter.

3/4-1" of thickness at drain flange...+3/4-1" at perimeter.

-Mark
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Unread 06-21-2020, 07:24 PM   #22
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I don't think you'd notice the difference with an 8" offset from center.
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Unread 07-09-2020, 12:38 PM   #23
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Back to it..

OK...We've been shorthanded at work, but I finally got back to it.

The subfloor and underlayment are all set...the final drain pipe and p-trap position have been set.

It's time to move onto the walls of the shower.

Trying to make a final decision between kerdi board and wedi board.

Wondering if anyone has experience with using the Wedi board and a mud base...which obviously then means a hybrid system with kerdi, or noble seal, or somesuch.

A buddy (general contractor, not a tile guy) just used the Wedi system (including base) and really liked it.

i haven't cross priced, but both are available relatively close by to me.

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis
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Unread 07-09-2020, 12:57 PM   #24
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Well..

I spoke too soon...The local Wedi distributor has stopped carrying it, and is carrying the Wedi-defector Hydro-blok product, instead.

Any recent experience with the Hydro-Blok???

-Mark
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Unread 07-09-2020, 01:03 PM   #25
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Both boards are decent. One thing on the Wedi panels is the requirement to use their sealant on all seams and screw hole penetrations...that stuff is not inexpensive! Thinset, as called for with Kerdi, is lots less expensive even when you add in the Kerdiband. You can flood test a Wedi shower quicker than you can with Kerdi, but most people don't find that an issue as DIY'ers.

Regarding the location of your niche...I think that reaching into it underneath that sloping wall will constantly result in knocking your head on the ceiling.

I don't remember if Schluter has a minimum thickness requirement for Kerdiboard when used on the ceiling...double-check that. The 1/2" is probably fine, but it might call for 5/8" there. Also check to see if the fastener requirement is different on the ceiling. When tightening the screws, make sure to only get a dimple, don't go far enough to break the surface sheet.

I think it's easier to cut KerdiBoard, but neither one is bad compared to cbu. The coating on Wedi tends to dull you knife. It's not bad, just different.
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Unread 07-09-2020, 01:12 PM   #26
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Hey Jim...Thanks for the reply.

The ceiling, at arms length, is still at least 6'-6" height...there is 66" at the wall/slope junction. It is a true walk-up 3rd fl and not just a converted attic...ceiling height at shower center is 103" (minus eventual mud base).

I "tested" it, before settling on the position (I should mention that is the position chosen by the wife, who does not want it on the shower arm wall...and you know what CX says about that...)

This Hydro-Blok stuff is almost 50% of the cost of Wedi, and their sealant is only 9.50/10oz. or $17/sausage...not a ton of feedback out there on it, though.

-Mark
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Unread 07-09-2020, 01:26 PM   #27
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You need to know some chemistry and investigate the actual long-term chemical characteristics of those two sealants. I know that KerdiFix is a silane based material. The 'alternatives' some people choose are urethane based materials. They have different characteristics. The long-term reliability and certification has been tested with the company's specific sealant. That doesn't mean an alternative MIGHT work, but there's been no careful evaluation of it. If VOCs are an issue, I know that the KerdiFix has zero...don't know for sure on the Wedi stuff. Most urethane based stuff stinks...for how long, not sure.

Technically, although I doubt you'd ever get called on it, plumbing and building codes require following the manufacturer's recommendations. Use something else, and technically, you don't have the plumbing certification so it should fail an inspection, but I doubt anyone would.
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Unread 07-09-2020, 10:34 PM   #28
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Hey Jim...Thanks again for the reply...but I'm not sure what your last reply is referring to, though.

I'm not looking for sealant alternatives...I was just quoting the price for the Hydro-Blok branded sealants, if using that system.

The only hybridization I might be interested in is running a mud base with a kerdi waterproofing layer, and then the mating of that (via kerdi-band and thinset) to the Hydro-Blok board. Given that all these boards are designed to take thinset/tile, I can't see any issue with that joint...ie same joint when using Kerdi Board.

In the end, I will probably just use the Kerdi board, which also readily available nearby at Floor and Decor and comes in 4x8 sheets....but the Hydro-Blok is interesting from a pricing standpoint.

-Mark
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Unread 07-10-2020, 11:48 AM   #29
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The Kerdi shower is considered a system, and the testing that results in its plumbing certification is only valid when used as the manufacturer directs...so, technically, hybridizing an install, while it may very well work, has no plumbing certification because you're not following the manufacturer's instructions. Now, would you fail, almost certainly not, but will it fail down the road, again, probably not, but there's no certainty, since it has not been critically tested. That's where product compatibility and longevity come into play. You want the thing to last until you decide to remodel, not because it is failing.

You could think of it like an electrical appliance with a UL certification...make changes to it, and it's no longer UL certified since that's not the configuration it was tested in.
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Unread 07-16-2020, 09:59 AM   #30
buldogge
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Fastener question...

Kerdi Board to Drywall transition question...

At the Kerdi board to drywall seam, we will use alkali resistant tape and treat it like any other drywall seam...it is 4+ inches into the dry area, outside the shower. The shower tile will then finish close to the seam.

Should I use Kerdi fasteners set back x inch(es) from the edge, in the Kerdi-board, to do the fastening closest to the drywall seam?

...or?

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis
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