Happy Dad's Shower Project

[1HappyDad]

Another thing, I have some fiber lock aftershock leftover. It is a fungicidal coating that specifically says in wall use is allowed. Where the mold remediation occurred, the mold was removed, wood dried, disinfected, dried again and the studs were coated with aftershock


Would it hurt to just use the rest of the fiber lock that I have to coat the studs in my 1/2 wall once the redgard is removed? Otherwise it’s going to end up in the trash or going bad in the attic.


Just a brain storm....0

[Carbidetooth]

James, I'd have the same question about the Aftershock as I had about the Redgard . Why?

If the only reason is to use the material up, that's just not a factor I think should have any bearing on your decision. I'm not one to suggest wasting anything, but also won't include random wildcards into a moisture control strategy.

While vapor drive and moisture control are evolving science to some extent, the "kitchen sink" approach rarely trumps what's already known. Let it dry out in the attic and know that the smart money lays with known quantities when it comes to this and many other things in the home building and renovation world.

[jadnashua]

What it comes down to is what is the permeability of the stuff.

FWIW, Redgard, with one coat, is generally used as a crack isolation material. While it will handle some water, not sure how much or how well. To work as a moisture barrier/water proofing, it needs the two full depth coats, properly applied. A thin coat is often watered down as a primer for exceptionally absorbent material so the 'real' coats can set and do their job.

[1HappyDad]

I found success with removing about 98% of the redgard that was on the studs for the 1/2 wall.

Using the rubber wheel was taking quite a while and I couldn't get the material to peel off more than a small amount at a time. Scraping with a putty knife scraper was extremely slow.

I ended up getting a variable speed belt sander, 80 grit sanding belts and going to town. I fabricated a hose adapter for the dust port on the sander to connect to my shop vac to control the dust and went to down.

The first step was to warm the redgard with a heat gun ahead of the sanding to around 150deg to soften it up a bit. Next, I ever so gingerly used the weight of the sander to essentially roll/scuff off the redgard. Success!

To get to the corners I used an oscillating tool with a sanding head to work the areas free. Overall it worked with minimal wood material removed, if any at all.

The other wall with the insulation board, I simply swapped out the board and used a leftover sheet to put back up.

[1HappyDad]

I'm learning as I go and this board has been quite resourceful. I am very grateful for that and all of your knowledge.

In regards to backer board. I initially purchased 9 sheets of DensShield as the local Lowes / Home Destruction were pretty bare on material.

Originally, I was simply going to go with a cement or PermaBase as my backerboard. The local box stores were picked over and the only material left had mostly damaged corners or some other defect.

My next source was DensShield, which came recommended by several folks. I found a distributor, and purchased 9 sheets to the tune of just under $300.
(I'm going with a large shower since I eliminated the garden tub)



Reading the forums it seems that DensShield is either a love it or hate it situation. Some folks say it's garbage and others say it is the best thing next to Kerdi. Assuming the directions are followed properly.

I have to build two niche and a bench in the shower; I'm concerned that the DensShield will be difficult to form and seal these areas where as Kerdi essentially has pre-fab benches and niche for their setup. The installation appears to be much easier as well.

Cost would probably double, if not triple. I'm really on the fence, but am not going to cheap out on waterproofing or tile.

Thoughts?

[e3]

might consider both Niches and Benches from Noble Co.http://noblecompany.com/storage/docs...escription.pdf
see link

[cx]

James, I've combined you with your previous thread on this project so folks can see what you're working on and what's been previously asked and answered. A moderator can give it a more generic title any time you'd like to suggest one.

While DensShield can be a useful product in some applications, a walk-in shower is just not one of them as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by James

...others say it is the best thing next to Kerdi. Assuming the directions are followed properly.

Therein lies the problem. If you can actually find the specific instructions for installation in a shower application, you're likely still to be scratching your head a bit in how to accomplish that.

But that's entirely up to you, of course.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[1HappyDad]

I was turned off by the densShield and returned it. When I contacted their technical line yesterday, two separate phone calls resulted in two separate answers to several questions.

This is just not something that I want to risk messing up and redoing again. The red guard scare was enough.

With regards to the Kerdi – I’ve seen multiple YouTube videos in their instructions also indicate that it can be mounted directly on the studs that are 16 inch OC.

The studs are all 16” OC with the exception of the half wall that was constructed – the studs were placed at 14 inch OC for increase stability.

With that in mind, once the thin set and tile have been placed, what is the stability of the wall / stiffness? For example, if I leaned against the wall, slipped and fell against the wall or some other situation ... is the wall going to flex under that type of load and tiles fall off?


The Kerdi system is looking very favorable for my situation, they are even the custom build in Soap shelves and benches that will save me a good amount of time framing/prep work.

Although this is not precise – the approximate measurement of the shower is 7’9”L X 5’4” requiring roughly 175ft2 of backer board and tile.

[ss3964spd]

James, I also constructed a 2X4 1/2 wall for my recent MB overhaul. It ended up being about 28" long and 40 some inches high. The whole thing was constructed using screws, and it is screwed to the end wall and into a couple of floor joists. It also houses the niche. It is covered on the shower side with foam board, and on the other with drywall. It was pretty stout but still moved. It did tighten up a bit when I installed the stainless steel frame for the corner bench. But what really did the trick was when I covered the bench with water proof membrane (similar to Kerdi) and sealed it to the two walls with waterproof band. I was shocked at the difference it made.

[1HappyDad]

So, updating my progress.

I'm at a hold up at this point on the shower as I'm waiting on estimates from two more plumbers. One company told me $1600 to plumb in a shower valve, diverter, shower pan and run lines to the laundry tub. All walls are open and easily accessible. For $750 I can buy 200' of Blue/Red Uponor PEXa, the Milwaukee expander, fittings and valve. I was thinking more along the lines of 1000-1100ish...but I may get stuck doing the plumbing as well.

Anyways, my job frequents me to large subdivisions w/ new construction. I was talking with a number of superintendents regarding the shower construction. They are all using denshield @ 3x5 sheets.

Their method of installation is as follows:

- Set board on studs, install with exterior screws,
- Caulk inbetween boards where they butt together
- Corners get caulked first
- Corners get kerdi 6" wide rolled membrane set in redgard
- All screw holes are covered with a 6"x6" kerdi membrane patch and covered with redgard.
- Bottom at the pan is set on 1/8" tile spacers. Spacers are removed when the panel is secured and filled with a Spectrum grout caulk.


DIY overwhelmingly seems to be using DuroRock, taped with alkli resistant tape/thinset at the joints. Bottom gets caulking @ the bottom pan. Screw holes get covered with thinset and the entire area covered with multiple layers of redgard.


Now I have PLENTY of redgard that was given to me. A single 3.5 gallon that is unopened and two 1 gallon buckets that are also new.


I am OCD'ing this to death...I know....

Maybe my plan of action could be 3x5 denshield, installed as noted above and as an additional measure, multiple coats of redgard on the surface?


As far as the corners go, one of the superintendents gave me two rolls of the 6" wide material and advised to use in the corners with either the durorock or DensShield; and also on the floor if I have any cracks.

https://me.laticrete.com/en/our-prod...racture-fabric

[1HappyDad]

Also, if I go with either the DuroRock or DensShield 3x5 panels, is it possible to use the Kerdi Niche and benches with those backer boards, or would be restricted to KerdiBoard?

[jadnashua]

In theory, DenShield might seem to be a great product. IMHO, not necessarily. It's still got a gypsum core which is not known for great longevity in a wet environment.

Setting Kerdiband with Redgard is not a great idea. FWIW, what holds Kerdi products together is not an adhesive bond, it's that the thinset flows around the fleece, then when it cures, locks things in place. It doesn't actually form an adhesive bond to the core of it. I'm not sure how well Redgard would work at that, and neither Custom Building Products nor Schluter would warranty it, nor does the Tile Council of NA list it as an acceptable method. There must be something to that!

While every shower pan must be waterproof, that is not the case for the walls. Being vertical means, assuming you build it properly, water doesn't tend to get inside the wall much, and most of it flows down due to gravity. Whatever moisture does get in, if the wall is treated properly, is prevented from getting to the structure behind.

Basically, any of the numerous methods in the TCNA handbook, done properly, works and you'll be tearing it out for remodeling purposes rather than performance ones. None of them are hard, but they are very detail oriented.

There have been surface applied waterPROOFING methods that have come into practice over the last 30+ years or so, but showers from way before that timeframe still work. I'm not a fan of a conventional shower pan where you have 1.5" or so thick layer of mud on top of the liner that generally is damp all of the time after the initial use. Personally, I prefer to ensure everything beneath the tile is waterPROOF, rather than water safe. I'm also not a great fan of trying to paint on a liquid waterproofing material. Yes, it can work. No, it's not as easy as it seems to do it right. Should you go that route, buy and learn how to properly use a wet film thickness gauge. It's a lot harder than you might think to get a consistent, properly thick layer over things with no runs, pinholes, or other application errors. Too thin is as bad as too thick, and extra layers are not super for performance. IOW, more is not better in this case. Each of the two layers needs to be the right thickness to perform properly.

What you don't want in a wall or pan in a shower are multiple layers of waterproofing...if there's any moisture migration in between them, it is nearly impossible for it to clear itself in a shower that is used regularly.

A cut edge of DenShield will expose gypsum, which isn't known for great performance when it gets wet. If any penetrations are not waterproofed, again, all bets are off.

Over the years, there have only been two products that have been tested, and approved for use over drywall in a shower. Kerdi is the original one. They have enough confidence in their product, and over 30-years of field experience, to say that done right, you can use plain, paper-coated drywall in a shower. None of the other products for use in a shower can say the same thing. Now, that may be because they know it won't work, or have not tested it in that manner. TO expand market share, one would think if they were confident it would work, they'd get it certified for that application. Plain drywall is easy to work with, readily available in larger sizes, and cheaper to install than any cement or other board designed for use there.

[1HappyDad]

I got around to setting my shower pan with a bit of help from a friend this evening. My previous shower was a drop down with a mud bed, sloped to a center drain. I removed the entire mud bed as it was in rough shape after removing the tile.

The goal was to make a zero entry shower without a step as I removed the tub; this would provide a great reselling point, especially with a large showering area

Anyways, the slab in the shower area is perfectly level in all directions, as well as the drop slab for the old shower.

So we set the pre slope to just ever so slightly towards the drain. I intend to set a shower pan if that makes a difference and build more slope into the pan

We set a 1by to simulate the slab buildup and tile thickness at the edge to give an idea of where to set drain.

Checked with the tile installer and he was satisfied with the setup so far.

We did kind if mess up and mixed in 3 bags of thin set with the 4:1. It ended up getting mixed with 7 bags of the 4:1. Should be ok..just extra firm.


Anyways, we discussed simply not using a pan liner and just using red gard and go up the walls about 12”. Not too sure about that

Also, how long does the pre slope need to sit before putting the pan on top of it and finishing out the buildup?


https://i.imgur.com/mnCpilB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DKUa196.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FWEUtRE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/RId6vI0.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0UdfsQc.jpg



My previous post on my bathroom adventures

https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin...d.php?t=130019

[Davy]

Hi James. The preslope that's under the pan liner should have the same 1/4 inch per ft pitch as the top mud bed has. I've installed the liner over preslope mud beds that were only 14-16 hours old.

Where is the shower door going? You want to be sure it's inside the pan liner.

[cx]

James, it'll help if you'll keep all your project questions on one thread so folks can see what you're working on and what's been previously asked and answered. A moderator can give it a more generic title any time you'd like to suggest one.

If you are making a traditional shower receptor, you cannot "set the pre slope to just ever so slightly towards the drain." The pre-slope is the part that must be sloped a minimum of 1/4" per horizontal foot from the farthest corner of the shower footprint. Properly done, the final mud bed would be a consistent thickness of a minimum 1 1/2" and would follow that slope.

For a curbless shower you will want to waterproof the bathroom floor well beyond the edge of your shower. Doing that with a traditional shower receptor is not an easy task and seldom actually correct in my experience. And if you want to continue with the traditional method, the first thing you'll need to do is correct your pre-slope situation.

Your decision to use a direct bonded waterproofing membrane-type receptor strikes me as your only real option at this point, but to do that correctly you'll likely need to change your drain or use what is commonly called here (TYW) the divot method. And while that can be done with a liquid-applied membrane (your RedGard), I strongly recommend you use a sheet-type membrane instead.

Originally Posted by James

Anyways, we discussed simply not using a pan liner and just using red gard and go up the walls about 12”. Not too sure about that

Whatever you elect to use, your waterpoofing must extend up the wall to at least above the shower head supply pipe.

My opinion; worth price charged.