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Old 12-27-2013, 12:15 PM   #1
Mathelo
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Starting Upstairs Bath

Last year I remodeled the downstairs powder room and foyer and this forum was a great help. You can see the threads here - http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...d.php?t=105459

and here - http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...d.php?t=104690

With that under my belt I'm moving on to a more ambitious project, our upstairs bath, which hasn't ever been redone and this house was built around 1960!!!

First step is demolition. Isn't this fun.
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Old 12-27-2013, 12:25 PM   #2
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The Plan

And here is the rough plan for the new bath.
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Old 12-27-2013, 01:02 PM   #3
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How to sister here ...

The demolition is now largely done. Now the real work begins. My floor joists are 2x8"s at 16" O.C. over an almost 12' span. This translates to a deflection of L / 302, which isn't even good enough for porcelain. If I sister I can get this up to L / 603, which is good enough for porcelain and maybe good enough for small marble tiles; probably going with porcelain in any case.

As you can see in the drawings / photos I can't sister the full length of the 12' joist but I understand that isn't an issue so long as I can have the sisters under the tile, which I can. Of course, I have wires to deal with. Some I can remove but there are a few that will be a problem.

1) For the wires on the outside wall, I'm thinking I can just put on fork in the end of the sister and be fine.

2) The wires in the middle of the room are a bigger problem. Not sure that I can remove them easily. Any ideas for working around these?

3) The wires under the hallway shouldn't be a problem except that I need to install an additional floor joist or some other form of support for the wall that I'll need to install. I'm bringing this wall in about 4" to 6".

So what do you guys think? How would you go about sistering these joists?
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Close up under hallway.
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:18 PM   #4
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That's a lot of info there Louis, and not sure I'm gettin it all... but, here's some general info to help you along.

- Sisters need only be on the middle 2/3 of the joist, regardless of where the tile will be
- Have you considered a beam below that floor to reduce the span?
- You can support walls parallel to joists and between them, by nailing solid blocking between the joists on either side of the new wall. Make sure to get a couple good big face nails on each side of the block or use joist hangers. Put a block under each stud or group of studs, and add another block (or 2) at the corner or end of a wall.
- If you're gonna sister, then you need full depth at the middle, so moving wires may be necessary. Sometimes we cut them and install j-boxes to make the new connections when reinstalling the wires, but j-boxes need to be 'accessible' so plan accordingly.

Hope this helps a little.
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:42 PM   #5
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Welcome back, Louis.

What Dana said, except let me clarify his point number one. To reduce the joist deflection you must sister an absolute minimum of the center two-thirds of the joists. Full length makes me feel a lot better, but technically the center two-thirds will meet the requirements. Anything less and you're wasting your time and money.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:00 PM   #6
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Louis, looks to me like those wires running parallel to the copper pipe don't connect to any accessible fixtures/boxes which if so means you'd have to cut 'n splice. As Dana pointed out splices must be contained in an approved box and the splice must be accessible (typically via a screwed on box cover). What room sits below the bathroom?

You mentioned a cast iron tub.....hope you have some burly buddies to muscle it up the stairs. I've installed several Kohler Villagers.....they're 316 pounds but only feel like 800 lbs when trying to wrestle them around
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:12 PM   #7
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These wire splices are new to the electrical code in my fair city with no jucntion box needed.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Tyco-Elec...7-2/202204326#

They make them for 12-2 and 12-3
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:40 PM   #8
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Paul, those are approved within enclosed walls/ceilings? I'm going to check my local codes about that...would solve one the the more frustrating aspects of remodel work. Thanks for posting.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:41 PM   #9
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They are in my fair city, surprisingly.
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhagin
That's a lot of info there Louis, and not sure I'm gettin it all... but, here's some general info to help you along.

- Sisters need only be on the middle 2/3 of the joist, regardless of where the tile will be
- Have you considered a beam below that floor to reduce the span?
- You can support walls parallel to joists and between them, by nailing solid blocking between the joists on either side of the new wall. Make sure to get a couple good big face nails on each side of the block or use joist hangers. Put a block under each stud or group of studs, and add another block (or 2) at the corner or end of a wall.
- If you're gonna sister, then you need full depth at the middle, so moving wires may be necessary. Sometimes we cut them and install j-boxes to make the new connections when reinstalling the wires, but j-boxes need to be 'accessible' so plan accordingly.

Hope this helps a little.
Dana,

Thanks for jumping in.

Can't user a beam below. This is a second story bath with the dining room below.

Like your idea for "support walls parallel to joists". That should work just fine.

Louis
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Welcome back, Louis.

What Dana said, except let me clarify his point number one. To reduce the joist deflection you must sister an absolute minimum of the center two-thirds of the joists. Full length makes me feel a lot better, but technically the center two-thirds will meet the requirements. Anything less and you're wasting your time and money.

My opinion; worth price charged.
CX,

Thanks for having me back.

So 2/3rds is my plan. From the outside wall to the hallway is about 8'. 8' over 12' is 2/3rds and fully covers the tiled area so I should be good.

I'd have to remove those wires under the hallways and rip out the sheetrock in the dining room to take it the full length. I'd do it if it was necessary, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Louis
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodie Powers
Louis, looks to me like those wires running parallel to the copper pipe don't connect to any accessible fixtures/boxes which if so means you'd have to cut 'n splice. As Dana pointed out splices must be contained in an approved box and the splice must be accessible (typically via a screwed on box cover). What room sits below the bathroom?

You mentioned a cast iron tub.....hope you have some burly buddies to muscle it up the stairs. I've installed several Kohler Villagers.....they're 316 pounds but only feel like 800 lbs when trying to wrestle them around :-)
Bodie,

Yea, those wires are a problem although if Paul's suggestion is a viable solution I'm home free.

Alternatively, would it be within code to have one or two of the existing light junction boxes do double duty and provide a junction box for these wires?

I know the tub will be heavy, about 400 lbs. I thought getting the old tub out was going to be a problem until I realized a sledge hammer would make quick work of it. That is not recommended for a new tub. I plan on having my help lined up before ordering the tub.
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houston
RemodelerThese wire splices are new to the electrical code in my fair city with no jucntion box needed.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Tyco-Elec...7-2/202204326#

They make them for 12-2 and 12-3
These would be great if allowed here in CT. I'll have to check.

And they apparently are available at my local Home Depot. I'd like to think they wouldn't sell them if they were against code but you never know ...
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Old 12-27-2013, 07:06 PM   #14
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Based on this somewhat dated thread

http://www.contractortalk.com/f5/rom...tap-kit-59635/

I'm not sure I'd want to be using these wire splices. Good idea though and I've always wondered why there wasn't some acceptable method to splice romex without a junction box.
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Old 12-27-2013, 07:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis
So 2/3rds is my plan. From the outside wall to the hallway is about 8'. 8' over 12' is 2/3rds and fully covers the tiled area so I should be good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CX, Post #5
you must sister an absolute minimum of the center two-thirds of the joists
We is having us one of them failures to communicate, Louis.

I put some of that post in bold on accounta it looked like there might be some misunderstanding before. I'll give it another try with the part you appear to be overlooking in even bigger bold.

To reduce the joist deflection you must sister an absolute minimum of the center two-thirds of the joists.

It matters not at all where your tile installation will be over the joists, to decrease deflection you must sister the center portion of the unsupported span. If you can't do that, you gotta go to plan B.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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