Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Professionals' Hangout

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 08-21-2006, 08:14 AM   #1
Shaughnn
Trowel Monkey
 
Shaughnn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kent, Washin'ton
Posts: 11,467
Redgard and Durock joints

Hi all! This past weekend, I got a call to come out and look at a project that had been abandoned by the previous tile setter. Amoung the many things which were done incorrectly, he installed Durock in a three-wall tub and bedded fiberglass web tape in Redgard at the joints, instead of using thinset. The rest of the walls were left bare of Redgard, though he did manage to get Redgard on the painted window trim.
My question to you all is, "Is the underlayment salvageable". It's my belief that with the Redgard along all of the joints, I could not now re-tape the joints using a thinset bed as the thinset will not bond to the underlayment correctly. "No bond" would mean "no bridge" and the usefullness of taping the joints would lost.
Any thoughts? Has there been any testing for a situation like this? Is there any documentation which I can offer the homeowner to ease the pain of removing all of the prior prep work which they've already paid this guy for?
Thanks,
Shaughnn
Shaughnn is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 08-21-2006, 10:17 AM   #2
T_Hulse
Tile Contractor
 
T_Hulse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,332
I dunno Shaughnn. The Redgard really helps with expansion/contraction type of cracks where the boards all stay on the same plane. But the thinset is usually protecting against movement in the other direction, where the boards move away from the wall differently when someone falls into the wall & bangs it. I don't think I would risk it unless the boards had been glued to the wall.

Prolly no moisture barrier back there huh?
__________________
Tom Hulse
Visit my web site here
T_Hulse is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 10:34 AM   #3
stullis
Flooring Installer
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Home of Sinclair Lewis, Sauk Centre, MN
Posts: 3,218
What else is wrong? I don't think you have a problem with the mesh and redgard on the seams.
__________________
Scott
stullis is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 10:39 AM   #4
T_Hulse
Tile Contractor
 
T_Hulse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,332
Scott I think he's saying that the problem is there's no thinset in the seams, and that is what locks the 2 sheets together & keeps them from moving independently away from the wall. I'm thinking Redgard is so flexible that it won't stop that kind of movement. You think Redgard will hold them together?
__________________
Tom Hulse
Visit my web site here
T_Hulse is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 02:37 PM   #5
koihito
A person, like you.
 
koihito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Kannapolis, NC
Posts: 1,931
I used Red Gaurd for a couple steam showers before I learnd of my dear Kerdi.
Custom has you prime with 4/1 water Red Gaurd mix, then two coats with mesh tape on the seams and any change of plane in the frst coat. I've not had any issues.
__________________
Nate

www.mikoskiconstruction.com
koihito is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 03:48 PM   #6
stullis
Flooring Installer
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Home of Sinclair Lewis, Sauk Centre, MN
Posts: 3,218
Yep Tom I do think it will hold them together as long as it is meshed. Might not be as strong as the thinset but once it is tiled I don't think he is going to have a problem. Either redgard the rest of the shower or maybe even kerdi it and you take care of the waterproofing. I don't know, it's somewhat up to the HO at this point.

Nathan, RedGard in a steam shower? I think that's a bad idea and that it wasn't recommended. Custom may have changed that spec though.
__________________
Scott
stullis is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 04:37 PM   #7
T_Hulse
Tile Contractor
 
T_Hulse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,332
Naw, it's been approved for steam showers for quite a while.
Scott I guess why I don't like skipping the thinset is because I've seen a failure similar to this. It was huge wall tile that were way too thin, and the walls were 10' tall and only 2x4 framing. The real problem was the framing with the thin big tile, but the tile did crack right through 2 layers of Redgard. So I know it's a possibility, I guess it's just a matter of how close to the edge do you want to ride.

Nathan the instructions for the Redgard cover waterproofing, not board installation, so you are not absovled of the requirement to thinset the joints. That's still a requirement according to the instructions.
__________________
Tom Hulse
Visit my web site here
T_Hulse is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 06:45 PM   #8
MHI
Kitchen & Bath Remodeler
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Madison, New Jersey
Posts: 2,435
In a steam shower with redgard, you leave the joints open. Just put redgard in the joint with the mesh tape. Steam showers need room for expansion, even the backerboard.

If its good enough for a steamroom, its good enough for a regular shower. I think it will be fine, unless there is something else wrong.

Tom, "When someone falls and bangs it"? How many times have you fallen in a shower? How about if an airplane crashes into the house. You can't worry about every rare extraordonary event.
__________________
Matt
MHI is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 08:37 PM   #9
Shaughnn
Trowel Monkey
 
Shaughnn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kent, Washin'ton
Posts: 11,467
Maybe I didn't describe it clearly enough. Durock nailed to bare studs, around the perimeter only. No moisture barrier at all. Durock sitting directly on top of and BEHIND the steel drip flange of the original tub (old mortar left on tub lip). Joints between sheets of Durock were between 1/4" and 1/2" (Durock has no integrated edge webbing). No thin-set used anywhere to bridge the sheets, only web tape (alkali resistant) covered with a 3"-wide coat of Redgard. The Redgard does not bridge the joints in most spots, nor does it seal out moisture.
So, my question is, if I remove the existing tape could I then bed new tape in thinset, over the Redgard, and still have it tie the sheets together into a monolithic sheet?
I believe that the Redgard would prevent a proper bond. I'm just looking for confirmation or testing data to disprove my hypothesis.
Anyone? Bueller?
Shaughnn
Shaughnn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 08:45 PM   #10
stullis
Flooring Installer
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Home of Sinclair Lewis, Sauk Centre, MN
Posts: 3,218
Why would the RedGard prevent a proper bond? You stick tiles to it with thinset.
__________________
Scott
stullis is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 08:48 PM   #11
Shaughnn
Trowel Monkey
 
Shaughnn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kent, Washin'ton
Posts: 11,467
Scott, I expect that the "anti-fracture" qualities of the Redgard would prevent the thinset and webbing bridge from acting as it's designed.
Shaughnn
Shaughnn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 09:02 PM   #12
1Eric
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Roanoke VA
Posts: 402
Shaughnn, I think you already have doubts about the integrity of the install over someone else's work. You and some of the others give advice that is strictly by the book. Why would you doubt yourself now? I just looked at a job and the lady wanted me to do tile over tile(with travertine) in a shower but wanted me to rip up the floor tile in the masterbath. The grout was missing in over half the floor and most of the tiles were loose. I looked at the floor and then the shower and told the women the shower had to be ripped out because I wasn't going to warrant the shower if the same person that did the floor also did the shower. She agreed and I have the job. It isn't the same thing but the point is still the same. Stick to your guns. You know what is wrong and right.
__________________
Eric
I know of no more encouraging fact than the unquestionable ability of man to elevate his life by conscious endeavor. Henry David Thoreau
1Eric is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 09:19 PM   #13
Shaughnn
Trowel Monkey
 
Shaughnn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Kent, Washin'ton
Posts: 11,467
Hi Eric,
I'm just looking for good referances to back up my position. The homeowners were convinced that this previous guy had been doing wonderful work before he vanished (paid on a Friday), and me telling them that all of his prep work was garbage left them a bit thunderstruck. I can document all of the other points I wanted to make to them but this one has eluded me.
I probably don't have time to do this for these people, though I wish I had the time. I just want to help them to understand what's going on so they don't get burned a third time.
Shaughnn
Shaughnn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 09:20 PM   #14
jdm
Registered User
 
jdm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: South Joisey
Posts: 5,217
Shaughnn know what's right and what he has to do.

But, despite the swashbuckling avatar, he's a softie at heart and desperately trying to find a way to soften the hit to his previously screwed-over client.
__________________
jeff

Go Rutgers!
jdm is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-21-2006, 09:32 PM   #15
koihito
A person, like you.
 
koihito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Kannapolis, NC
Posts: 1,931
Tom,

Not according to the Custom tech line.....but I'm not sure that means anything. I use Kerdi now anyhow. Red Guard always made me nervous, even after it's dry if it gets wet it turns pink again and I I always felt like it was water resistant rather than proof. That said, I've never had a Red Guard related call back, so maybe my scepticism is unfounded and unfair.
__________________
Nate

www.mikoskiconstruction.com
koihito is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:18 AM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC