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Unread 01-06-2007, 03:34 PM   #1
nappas_tile
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Gemini Revolution Saw Rip Off

DISCLAIMER:The advice on this page is my personal opinion (other than the external water system) and is based on my experience as the owner of 4 revolution saws over the last 2 years. 3 of the 4 saws are dead- having lasted- 7months, 9 months,(origional models) and 5 months on a XT model. The 4th is now 4 months old and starting to fall apart. I made this info page because the service department no longer responds to my complaints. They will not own up to the fact that 2 parts used on the saw are not lasting. I encourage everyone to first ask advice from Gemini- If they don't answer your questions- then please feel free to try any of my solutions at your own risk.
GEMINI REVOLUTION XT

10" TILE RING SAW
WARNING: THIS SAW HAS 2 SERIOUS FLAWS


ALL BEARINGS AND THE DRIVE BELT WILL FAIL WITHIN 3-5 MONTHS




THE OWNER, JESSE, OF THE GEMINI SAW COMPANY, INVENTOR OF THE REVOLUTION- IS AWARE THE PARTS ARE NOT HOLDING UP - BUT REFUSES TO UPGRADE TO BETTER PARTS. "I DON'T WANT TO PAY MORE FOR THE BEARINGS- THEY ALREADY COST ME $2.50 EACH" HE CHARGES CUSTOMERS $15 EACH FOR REPLACEMENTS -THAT ADDS UP TO APROX:


$850 A YEAR FOR BEARING AND BELT REPLACEMENT-
THATS EQUAL TO THE PRICE OF THE SAW!!



FLAW INFORMATION AND SOLUTION ADVICE POSTED 1/4/07






Please allow me to advise you on what to expect and how to deal with it.
They have 2 well known flaws that he needs to deal with- but hasn't. The bearings within all the wheels below and the belt. The bearings are not heavy duty enough and will fall apart at any time. The belt stretches out very quickly-in as little as 3 months of low use. tho it's the parts are failing- they will not warranty them- they make you buy new ones- and you will spend as much on those parts as you did on the saw within a year. The bearings run $15 each and the belts $30. The original Revolution had alignment issues that made it blow apart fast- the XT has too much tension and not enough water.They kept the same faulty parts.


#1.. PART FAILURE
Expect the pulley bearings to start failing after 20 hours of use.The 4 dark blue pulley's-bearings usually blow apart first- Tho my current saw had one of the red guides at the front blow up on the 3rd day. Then one of the orange ones blew up at 3 weeks old. Drive belt stretches out way too fast. NO WARRANTY REPLACEMENT!
#2. ADDING AN EXTERNAL WATER SYSTEM REQUIRED.
The inventor told me I HAD to create an external water system for the XT saw.- you need to do the same- SYSTEM- Remove the water tank it comes with-
Now- set the saw in a normal wet saw tray with the plug in it or any tray, black mixing tub, under bed tupperware tub- It needs to fit the saw with atleast an inch around it to collect the water.Needs to hold 4" deep of water then needs to overflow in just one place- into a 5 gal bucket. Raise the saw up using wood or long tile cut offs- some under each end until it is both level and saws water feed hole sits just below the trays water.The upper 5 gal bucket needs a hole cut in it- about 2" across -1/2 way up the side-to allow free flow draining of water into lower 5 gal bucket.This usually means you must have upper bucket sit half way ocross lower bucket and prop other side up with bricks or a nother bucket with a piece of tile on it to make upper bucket tip towards lower bucket a little. Place a plastic kitchen strainer- or whatever- to water keep the water pump in the top 4" of the buckets water. Flush out saw tray often as it will collect some muck at the bottom. (click to request picture diagram of this: REQUEST PICTURE)
The water feed hose can enter the saw under the at the back - above the motor- right before the blade comes back out to the top- getting it good and wet for cutting. I just lift out the top cover tab like thing and slide the hose in about 2 1/2 " the cover holds the hose in place. put pump on a toggle outlet strip to ease turning on and off. Check system if water becomes hot. Somethings stuck in saw- making friction- It does get warm- but not hot.
The cleaner the water- the longer the saw will last. Using a fish pond power head will cost 1/3 the price of a "tile" water pump- and have more power.They sell them in Home Depot garden department.Get an extra long hose- like 6' to go with it.
#3..SAW LUBERCATION
Get a gal of car wash and wax- Turtle wax brand- blue stuff- Every time you run that saw- add like 1/2 cup to the water- will cut much smoother.They suggest dish soap- but the wash and wax is more slippery.
#4.. ONLY USE 2 SIDED BLADES!
THE WEB SITE SAYS: using the blade in BOTH directions equally is required to get the full life out of the bearings- (SEE BELOW) kinda hard to do if you are using a one sided blade! -I've always used the 2 direction blades- they are thinner- therefore cut faster and easier. Both directions I believe means cutting by pulling tile towards you- within the ring 1/2 the time- which I can do maybe only 1/8th of the time. I've had one blade snap the day I put it on. Turning the tile too fast can snap the blade.In 2 years I've snapped 3, worn out 3. -The smaller the blade gets - the looser the belt will get. One way to tighten the belt once its at max adjustment is to put on a new blade.You'll gain maybe 2 more weeks use. If you take a blade that's still usable off- be sure to mark the direction it turns before removing it. Can be hard to tell which way to put it back on-(hint- dots forward- tails follow- look at the blade up close and you'll see what I mean- )
#5.. SAW NOISE INCREASE
Expect the saw to get louder and louder after about 2 months. the noise is the breaings begining to fail.Only replacing all of them will make it quiet again. Listen carefully to your saw- You will soon be able to identify if a chip of tile has become stuck behind a orange wheel or pulley-sounds like a whine or high pitch quiet whistle. THIS CAN BREAK THE SAW - Stop cutting-! First try free it by pouring a quart or so of water into the slot while the saw is running- pour from a height of at least 8 inches above saw- You will hear a clatter of all kinds of stuff being spun out- this is normal- but listen for the scraping/ whistle to stop- try water again if you still hear it. If the water doesnt work- go to # 9 below.
#6..BELT ISSUES
The belt getting too loose will first feel and sound like the motor is loosing power-it will bog- slow down when you put any pressure on the piece being cut. Another symptom is it will slip- tighten it right away to prevent it from comming off- which ruins it-- but not with all your might like it says- just good and snug. You will find full power has returned. Tighten screw firmly-it can vibrate and become loose. Regardless- in about 3 months of moderate use-(10- 20 hours a week) you will need to order a new one. You know time has run out when you start having to tightening it weekly. and reach maximum adjustment and need to order a new one-
You will be able to tighten it only about 6 times before it wont adjust any more.See #5 & #7 for ways to gain a few weeks once you can't adjust it any more(till the replacement gets there) When you remove it- you may notice silver metal wires (there is 2 of them inside) within it have started showing- you may even start seeing thin 1/2" long bits of metal wire- like pieces of hair- start showing up around the saw.
The good news is they are VERY fast at shipping parts out to you- within 2 days.Order Directly from Gemini-call service department-you'll pay less then from a store-($30 vs $60).You have to call. Get connected to the service tech. He can help arrange direct order of parts- if you ask customer service first- they will say no, order from the store. The tech will transfer you back to her- but she will say yes to selling you the parts. I've talked to the inventor about needing a belt that wont stretch out so fast- but he said he paid a small fortune to have these created and is unwilling to start over- has about 40,000 of them.They have sold about 10,000 saws according to the tech- so it's going to be a year or two before it's remade. I'd like anyones help with finding a suitable replacement. Till then- order 2- you will eventually need the extra one.
#7..BEARING REPLACEMENT-
this is something I've been doing since saw #1. The bearings can be popped out and you can put another bearing in it. Rollerblade bearings do fit- and I have yet to have one fail- but the metal ones do rust-I found these at the local dollar store- $1 for 8 of them!
Ideally- replace with ceramic rollerblade bearings- which cost from $25-$125 each- but last 7+ years. Check the bearing size carefully. Using the correct size is important for some of the blue pulleys for fit- like the one next to the motor- . while intentionally using a slightly bigger bearings (on bottom and adjustable ones) can aid in tightening a maxed out belt till a new one arrives. Using a bigger size can also close the gap on the red guides if they get too worn out. orange guides are best replaced with new orange guides- You can order a set of replacement orange guides- which cost less then pulleys- and steal their bearings- they are identical- but will still fall apart in 1-3 months.
To trade out a bearing- you will need to get longer screws at ACE- some small washers - save the sleeve inserts from the old bearings to use on the replacements.- you can only use one side of it- with a very small washer on the other- one that doesn't extend past the center metal on the new bearing. -( I've considered selling bearing replacement kits)
#8. CLEAN UNDER TOP PLATE
Regularly remove top metal deck- it will gather a lot of chips and sludge under it in the middle.Build up lifts plate and pieces stick up and block movement of tile over surface.
#9. CLEAN BEHIND ORANGE GUIDE WHEELS OFTEN
Regularly open the clear under cover and manually turn the orange guide wheels while running water over them- to free stuck pieces from behind them- first turn with out water on them- you'll see that maybe half do not turn without resistance=chips stuck behind them= will break soon. Every two weeks- or more often if you use the saw often- take each orange wheel off one at a time - rinse off with clean water- and on the saw where it came from- inspect for damage-


WHAT DOES A DAMAGED BEARING LOOK LIKE/SOUND LIKE?
1- Either of the 2 black rubber "washers" are not laying flat, has a piece missing or is gone.
2- The little balls are showing- but still spread out evenly- (you have less then a week before it blows apart)
3- The little balls are clustered together with spaces between clusters- YOUR
BEARING HAS FAILED. You have to replace it.
4- Seperating the bearings balls is a thin curvy cage- if you see one- stop and look for the bearing it came from- it's about to fail.
5- You hear a loud clatter from below- QUICKLY TURN OFF SAW!!! A bearing has "blown apart" meaning it broke into pieces and came off the saw. This noise also happens when a screw becomes loose and a wheel falls off- ALWAYS CHECK SAW CAREFULLY IF YOU HEAR A CLATTER- EVEN IF THE SAW KEEPS WORKING AND SEEMS FINE- S T O P.
Check now and then if blue pulley wheels are rubbing on the clear under cover. Tightening the cover all the way can cause the orange wheels near the screw to rub as well.
#10- AVOID BLADE RUST
The blade will rust if left damp- open cover and air out if not going to use for a few days
#11- OVERSPRAY SOLUTION
clip a curved piece of cut up tupperwear to end of top metal- extending down in front- about 4" long- by 3" wide -to control the water spray. Ultimately- several of us use black garbage bags over our body to keep dry.
#12. NO WARRANTY
I was originally told by the inventor that the bearings and belt should last a year. Later he said they should last as long as the life of one blade- which seems to be maybe 6 months . Now they wont say how long it should last- only that there is no warranty replacement of bearings or belts- what so ever.
______________________________________________________________________
BABY YOUR SAW!! use only when you have to. You have a very limited amount of cuts you will be able to make- so use them wisely!! They will only replace the motor under warranty!
______________________________________________________________________


GEMINI DOES NOT RESPOND TO EMAIL

from gemini's help page:
Q: When should I replace my wear parts?
A: The orange grommets average lifespan is approximately the life of the blade.
The more aggressive users will wear these parts faster. These grommets come
with replacements blades. (?what ??)
The average life of the drive belt is two to three blades.(but how long does a blade last? they don't say)
Favoring one direction when cutting will greatly reduce the life of a drive belt as well as the blade and grommets.
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Unread 01-06-2007, 07:09 PM   #2
tileguytodd
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Think I'll just stick with My Felker and let everybody else play with the wannabe tile saw manufacturers.
I have 1 10 year old Felker Thats been my main workhorse.......Replaced 2 switches, 1 pump, and 1 tray (due to idiot helper) Never lost a bearing or a Belt EVER
Once youve OWNED the BEST
Everything else Pales by comparison!!!

Been saying it for years......Be a PRO.......Buy A Felker!!
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Unread 01-06-2007, 07:18 PM   #3
MHI
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4 saws in the last 2 years?

Why do you keep buying them?
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Unread 01-06-2007, 08:00 PM   #4
Scottish Tile and Stone
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I was gonna ask the same thing. If they dont last quit buying them.
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Unread 01-06-2007, 08:24 PM   #5
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Forget the ring saw buy a band saw!
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Unread 01-06-2007, 08:28 PM   #6
Scottish Tile and Stone
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Kevin, you use band saws alot? Can you do detailed pattern work with them? curves and things?
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Unread 01-06-2007, 08:35 PM   #7
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haha

Sorry for the extra long post. But that was from someone who does elaborate design work who uses it alot. I only use mine for curves and circles going around things, not to make mosiacs. My Felker, MK and the other 2 saws I have are just peachy...minus the fuzz.
The gemini Revolution saw costs about $1000 more than it's worth...and I paid $1200 for it.
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Unread 01-06-2007, 11:08 PM   #8
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Bob it looks like you're copy-and-pasting at least 3 different sections in there by an unknown poster. When you're quoting someone else, it's good form to put those in qoute marks or tell us who it's from, otherwise it looks like you're personally vouching for all that criticism.
You know, anonymous complaining posted second hand by someong else on the internet aint worth a hill of beans. So I don't see anything there that reflects negatively at all on them in real life, just a slightly unstable mass-production saw abuser who isn't quite smart enought to figure out when to stop buying what most guys here already know is a finess saw for delicate work.
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Unread 01-07-2007, 12:52 AM   #9
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Wink

Bob i found the post quite long and almost un-readable. If you would like
to quote another user in the future you have the most common choice
which is to simply highlight the text you want to quote and use the quote
button. A better way is to give direct information by using the command
that gives the user name which must be enterd manually.
A simple lesson for all when quoting goes something like this
[Quote ="username" ] message blah blah. To enter
the user you want to quote edit the first quote definition and
type in manually ="username" Inside the [] brackets after the word quote.
It will look something like this.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
DISCLAIMER:The advice on this page is my personal opinion
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Unread 01-07-2007, 06:58 AM   #10
John Bridge
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Bob,

May I suggest that you shorten the first post to something like "I don't like the Revolution saw. Don't buy one, and certainly don't buy four of them."

I will also add our own disclaimer: We don't endorse what's been said here. As far as we know it's hearsay.

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Unread 01-07-2007, 08:12 AM   #11
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I have one of those animals. It is meant to be handled with kid gloves. It is NOT a production saw. It is a hobby saw at best. The Diamond Bandsaw is another hobby saw. I had one of those too. The concept of the two saws is great. Hey Mr or Ms Felker...are you listening.
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Unread 01-07-2007, 09:36 AM   #12
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Here's the link to the tile setters site

Gemini Saw Stuff
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Unread 01-07-2007, 11:04 PM   #13
Bill Vincent
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Quote:
Think I'll just stick with My Felker and let everybody else play with the wannabe tile saw manufacturers.
Apples and oranges, Todd.

That said, I agree with Kevin. I've got a DL5000 band saw, and I've done several jobs with it, and it's still going strong after a year and a half, and Sotty-- yes, you can. One look at the front page of my website, and you'll see what it's capable of.
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Unread 01-08-2007, 04:24 AM   #14
tileguytodd
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Speaking of Oranges Bill, did you ever see an Orange Target Saw???
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Unread 01-08-2007, 06:01 AM   #15
Dave Gobis
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Our Gemini is the older model. 4 years old, occasional use by abusive people
(most don't know about saws) and we have replaced one set of bearings, 2 blades due to abuse, and the drive belt. I think it does what it is supposed to do. If I was (and did, had a diamond rod type bandsaws) doing intricate work that seems part of the cost of doing business to me. Maybe he or she needs a $500,000 water-jet, not a $1200 ring saw. It has never been presented as a production saw. They have not done any favors for me nor I have I spoken to them in a few years (no reason to) but such a stinging critisim doesn't seem very fair to me especially not knowing the scope of use.
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