Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 12-04-2002, 12:59 AM   #1
Hydrofoiler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 5
Question Maple countertop edging and granite tile

Should you put the countertop edging on the plywood before you set the hardibacker or set the granite tile or once both of them are set?

How should the countertop edging be fastened to the plywood if it is only 1 1/2 inches high? Finish Nailed? Biscuit joined? At that height, screws do not appear to be an option because you cannot attach them from behind.

What should the joint between the tile and the maple edging look like? Should there be something there to accomodate for the expansion in the maple? Can you get away with nothing in the joint (just previously set tile and the wood, no grout, no caulk, no nothing!)?

I have installed the 3/4" plywood on the cabinets and I am ready to get started.

Thanks,
Bill
Hydrofoiler is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 12-04-2002, 03:24 PM   #2
Bud Cline
Tile Contractor -- Central Nebraska
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Central Nebraska
Posts: 7,567
1-1/2" is plenty to attach the edging to the top. As you probably know maple is very hard and you will need to predrill your nail holes.

You could use "finish screws" and fill the holes later. These screw holes should also be predrilled but there is very little head on a finish screw so choose your drill bit carefully.

Don't forget to also glue the maple to the ply at the same time you screw or nail it.

Expansion won't be an issue and I don't know what you mean by "nothing in the joint".

Grout is necessary if that's what you mean.
Bud Cline is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2002, 06:12 PM   #3
John Bridge
Mudmeister
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Rosanky, Texas
Posts: 68,732
Send a message via AIM to John Bridge
Hi Bill, Welcome.

I think you mean the maple strip is only 1- 1/2 inches tall.

Unless you have a buiscut joiner (like I do) I think you will have to attach it from the front and fill the holes. Being a woodworker, I have sucessfully glued solid wood to plywood edges but only in the shop where I can clamp them properly. I couldn't guarantee it in the kitchen.

There are glues, however, that will do the job.

We need CX in here. I think we've had this conversation before. I'll shoot him an email.

I would attach the wood before putting in the backer and the tile.
John Bridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2002, 06:18 PM   #4
Hydrofoiler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 5
1 1/2" is just barely enough for my application. I have 3/4" for the ply, 1/4" for the cement board and 3/8" for the granite tile. That leaves an 1/8" for thin set on either side of the cement board.

I was thinking of using a finish nail gun to attach the edging to the ply. Should I attach the edging before or after I lay in the tile and cement board?

The "nothing in the joint" was referring to the joint between the edge of the tile and the Maple countertop edging (where the Maple meets the granite). Should I put caulk along that edge or should I put sandless grout there or do I need anything in that joint at all?

Hopefully I have explained myself well enough. This is hard to describe without a drawing. Thanks sooo much for your help.

Thanks,
Bill
Hydrofoiler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2002, 06:20 PM   #5
Hydrofoiler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 5
I do have a biscuit joiner if that is a better method.

Thanks,
Bill
Hydrofoiler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2002, 08:05 PM   #6
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 95,749
Bill:

I have done a number of tile countertops with wood edge trim, but always using a mud base rather than CBU. I do the mud because it makes a nice, flat surface for the tile, allows for near perfect height adjustment, and has the added advantage of being able to imbed screws to help hold the edge trim in place, especially at outside corners.

Using CBU instead, I think I would install it first so that I could get the height of the edge trim as close to right as possible since there will be no real adjustment of the substrate available. I suppose you could adjust with your thinset, but you'd wanna be sure your edge trim wasn't too low to begin with.

First, is an inch and a half the only trim size available for what you want to do? I generally use about 2 1/4" trim (with a mud base), made to match or compliment the profile of the cabinets in use. That usually allows about a quarter of on inch overlap of the base cabinet face frame and gives a full inch to glue the trim to. I glue the edge to that quarter inch and to the edge of the 3/4 inch plywood rough top. For stain grade work especially, I shoot a minimum number of small (18 gauge) fasteners through the edge trim and clamp as much as possible. You can always clamp at the sink and stove cutouts without difficulty. For the rest, you can screw wood cleats to the top near the back and use bar clamps. If you have trouble getting the right angle that way, drill 1" or 1 1/4" holes in the top to accept the head of your bar clamps. Your CBU or mud base will cover the holes later. I, too, have a biscuit joiner, but I've never used it for this application. You certainly could, though. You could also use pocket screws, which I've also never done but intend to try on my next top, and fasten from the back of the edge trim. You still wanna glue it well.

Second, do you have any outside corners to deal with?

In any case, a very important step in the process is to stain and seal, or paint, the edge trim (at least the back) before setting the tile or grouting. This prevents wetting the edge trim and causing swelling and subsequent shrinking. I leave a full grout joint width between the tile and edge trim and just grout the whole top as though it were all tile. A hairline crack will always form between the grout and edge, but if the edge has been properly sealed, the line will be nearly invisible and noticed only by the installer in most cases.
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2002, 09:15 PM   #7
Hydrofoiler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 5
Thanks CX! I knew you would have a good answer for me.

So I will take your recommendation and put the cement board in before I put the edging in. I think I should be able to put in cleats through the CBU so I can clamp the edging down. The screw holes should get covered up after I put the thinset down for the granite tile. I will use the 18 gauge fasteners because it will be easy. The height of the countertop molding was not negotiable since I got them with the cabinets I purchased (Merillat cabs). If it looks like I will have a problem after I install the CBU then I can go buy some maple and make my own molding that will have the correct height.

I will have both outside and inside corners to deal with. What is your suggestion on this?

Can I get away with not grouting the edge? Or should I go ahead with it so the chamfer on the granite is not visible (I am really not sure how that would look with the chamfer exposed)?

One last question. I know this has been asked a lot but I am really having a hard time deciding what to do. I have two small countertops, one on either side of my range. My floors are soo uneven that the countertop on the left side is a 3/16" taller than the other. If I add cement board to the left countertop, it will raise it above the range's top level whereas the right countertop will be flush. The range is maxed out on how high I can level it so the left countertop would always be higher. This left countertop is 15" x 26". Since I feel my only solution is to attach the granite to plywood, what is the best method for doing this? What precautions should I take? There will only be two tiles plus a little extra on either side on the left countertop (12" x 12" tile). I have securely fastened the plywood with screws around the ENTIRE perimeter of the cabinet. Any suggestions on how to deal with this would be helpful.

Thanks so much for your help.

Bill
Hydrofoiler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2002, 11:01 PM   #8
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 95,749
A frequent problem with outside corners is the joint opening up after a while, which I have always attributed to expansion of various parts of the countertop and edge material, likely due to moisture. I have been successful with these joints by putting long sheetrock screws into the edging from the back and embedding the rest of the screw in the mud bed. Seems to keep everything pretty tight. But with a CBU substrate, I'm not sure what you can do other than gluing and clamping a tight miter and sealing the edge real well, especially the back side after it's installed. Inside corners don't seem to be much of a problem, but I give them the same treatment when I do mud tops.

If you choose to install the CBU before the edge, be sure to leave it a little shy of the edge of the plywood so you don't get any interference when you glue up the edging. You also want to have a piece of your tile laying on the top to gauge the height of the edging by, allowing for your thinset, of course. I usually make a notched stick to gauge with when screeding the mud, and you could do the same to gauge the height of the edge, too.

For the uneven counter tops, I think your best bet would be to unscrew the 3/4 inch ply from that little top that's high and replace it with 1/2 inch, then install the CBU. You'll hafta drop the edge trim down the cabinet face a little, but that shouldn't be much of a problem if it makes the tops line up. A quarter inch shouldn't get you too close to drawer tops or whatever is in that cabinet. Lot of problems with tiling directly to plywood. Don't do it if you can help it.

As for grouting/not grouting at the edge - I dunno. I've never used granite tile so I don't know what the aesthetic problems are. One of the real tile guys can maybe help you there.
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-05-2002, 11:50 AM   #9
Hydrofoiler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 5
Thanks for the idea on using 1/2 plywood! That is something I did not even think about!

I am glad to hear what you had to say about the outside corners. I thought of a way that could help eliminate the problem you talked about. I can use a metal corner bracket that will be screwed into and recessed in the maple edging. I can put it on the inside of the outside corner. To recess it, I can use a router to make a slot for it. This should help to reinforce the joint so it does not come apart. What do you think?

Any suggestion on how I can estimate the height of the thinset between the CBU and the granite? I plan on using a 1/4" by 1/4" trowel. Does that make it an 1/8" high? I assume I would double it if I back buttered the granite?

Thanks so much CX for all your advice.

Any of you tile guys have advice for me on whether to grout along the edge where the maple meets the granite?

Thanks,
Bill
Hydrofoiler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-05-2002, 04:28 PM   #10
John Bridge
Mudmeister
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Rosanky, Texas
Posts: 68,732
Send a message via AIM to John Bridge
Bill, the bracket will work.

Thin set spread with a 1/4 in. trowel will build you up about 3/32. You won't back butter unless you need to build up a piece or two.
John Bridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-05-2002, 07:50 PM   #11
Bud Cline
Tile Contractor -- Central Nebraska
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Central Nebraska
Posts: 7,567
For appearance sake I would grout the maple/tile gap first and see if a crack developes. If it does crack then go to a matching siliconized caulk.

Sometimes the caulks don't match the grout perfectly after a few days and I wouldn't want a mis-match (no matter high slight) right up front if I could avoid it.

This is one of those trial and error thingys that really can't be predicted.
Bud Cline is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-05-2002, 08:03 PM   #12
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 95,749
Mmmmm, pretty small bracket if you install the edge first, pretty short screws, too. I guess if you install the bracket before you install the edging you could get maybe a one inch bracket in there. With only really small screws (assuming your edging is 3/4 inch thick), I think I would imbed the bracket in some sort of epoxy in your mortise, since you're losing some gluing surface in the joint. I'd glue the joint first, clamping it well. When dry, imbed the bracket in epoxy.

Or just glue the joint without the mortise, cross-nail it with them 18 gauge brads, and hope for the best.
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:55 PM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC