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Unread 02-24-2020, 11:37 PM   #76
KarenA01
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Having to go to a 30 inch tub really bothered me and made me think more about layout. We really can't lose much closet space as the house does not have enough... but it does not need to be WHERE it is now... and there is nothing preventing a closet from being inside a bathroom...

So I came up with the layout below putting a closet with sliding doors in teh bathroom...

While things are still tighter than ideal, the passage way is a much more reasonable size.

The new closet , while a smaller is still a decent size... Much bigger than any linen closet would need to be...

If anyone sees any issues with it please let me know... The biggest potential one I can think of is that the tub drain moves about 8-9 inches father from the main sewer line exit it is connected to... I know there are limits to how far the distance can be, but I don't know what they are.

That existing closet in back of the tub is a utility closet that has the vacuum, brooms and a lot of other stuff needed often. Some of that stuff (like the vacuum cleaner and a number of other items) should not be in the bathroom but need ti be easily accessible.

But if we do that, there is a smaller linen closer (32"WX15"D) next to the other side of the bathroom that would no longer need to be used for linens...

The back of that closet is the side wall of a fairly large bedroom closet... If we move the existing linen closet back wall out by a foot, stealing the space from that bedroom closet, there would be a place for everything and it could all work!

Of course this probably would add a LOT to the cost of the renovation <sigh>

Any comments on this layout would be welcome.

- Karen
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Unread 02-25-2020, 07:40 AM   #77
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Looks and sounds like a workable solution to me, Karen.

It appears the dimensions you're using for the tub are the finished size; so just keep in mind you need to account for the rough opening sizes; standard 5' long tubs will need a 60" RO. Be certain to actually measure the tub/check the instructions before the framing begins.

You've allotted 7" for the plumbing wall, any particular reason? You could pick up some precious inches for the closet if you framed that plumbing wall with 2X4's instead, unless you need the width of the wall so that your closet ends up a certain size to accommodate a particular sliding door size.

And it still looks to me that you could pick up some more precious inches for the vanity if you decreased the size of the entry door. increased counter top space is always welcome, though in your case symmetry would be lost, but sometimes form needs to follow function.
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Unread 02-25-2020, 08:33 AM   #78
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that vanity is only 19in deep. I's make it 21 and don't forget about the counter overhang on all sides.
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Unread 02-25-2020, 09:00 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
You've allotted 7" for the plumbing wall, any particular reason?
I saw that, and thought it might be because the water lines were on the far right side of that wall, closest to the proposed location of the new closet.

If that's the case, they could be moved, but would it be worth it to gain 2-3" in the closet?

Or it's something completely different and I don't know what I'm talking about.
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Unread 02-25-2020, 09:08 AM   #80
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We commonly frame a 2x6 wall to better accommodate the 2" vent pipe, but that's generally a wall next to the WC. It's nice to have a thicker wall for other drain and vent plumbing, too, though. As Kevin suggested, I wouldn't usually sacrifice that for a gain of a couple inches of closet space.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-25-2020, 09:32 AM   #81
KarenA01
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Dan wrote:

Quote:
It appears the dimensions you're using for the tub are the finished size; so just keep in mind you need to account for the rough opening sizes;
I think I am. I based it on the measurements from the wall of the current 60" X 32" tub.


Quote:
You've allotted 7" for the plumbing wall, any particular reason?
I read that plumbing walls should be 2X6 construction. That and the potential extra thickness for the waterproofing + tile over just drywall.

If it turns out 2X4 construction is OK that would be great but in deciding on the layout I don't want to be over optimistic on space.

Quote:
And it still looks to me that you could pick up some more precious inches for the vanity if you decreased the size of the entry door.
I will consider that... The actual opening (minus the trim) for the door is 29".

One of the justification in my mind for the extra cost of this layout is this it would make getting around easier.

We are getting older (mid 60's now). While this bathroom will never be wheelchair accessible, we want it to be more usable if we ever need walkers.

While I do want more counter space (would love to go with a 42" vanity instead of 36"), long term accessibility is more important. That makes hesitant me about making the door smaller..But I will think about it..

The space for the toilet between the vanity and the wall is SLIGHTLY larger than the minimum required, so the vanity could be moved 2 inches closer to the toilet. Then the other side would only be 4" closer to the door... But I need to think about how would work out.

Bathrooms are complicated!

Mike, while I thought about going to a 21" deep vanity, accessibility is why I stayed with an 18" so far.

Thank for the feedback
-Karen
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Unread 02-25-2020, 09:56 AM   #82
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Kevin,
That wall will have all the tub/shower plumbing in it so the tub spout, and shower head would be on it and all the pipes and valving would be inside it.

CX wrote:

Quote:
We commonly frame a 2x6 wall to better accommodate the 2" vent pipe, but that's generally a wall next to the WC. It's nice to have a thicker wall for other drain and vent plumbing, too, though. As Kevin suggested, I wouldn't usually sacrifice that for a gain of a couple inches of closet space.
Let me ask about that... Right now there is no vent from the tub drain area as far as I can see... Does the need for a vent depend on the length of the drain pipe run to the vent?

As I said the drain would need to move about 8-10 inches toward the door. That drain pipe now runs to about to about the corner behind the toilet where it joins the main waste pipe. (I can see this in the basement).

I guess that means if the longer distance makes enough difference, another vent would need to be installed though the roof?

One more question to anyone.. Should the plumbing wall extend 2-3" beyond the tub? For all the pictures of alcove tubs I've seen, that seems to be the case.

Thanks all for your feedback. It is very appreciated.

-Karen
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Unread 02-25-2020, 04:05 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen
Does the need for a vent depend on the length of the drain pipe run to the vent?
No, the need for a vent exists because you have a drain. The permissible length of the drain line to the vent is usually dependent upon the size of your drain line and your plumbing code.

The need for an additional roof penetration is something I've argued many times with various code compliance inspectors. Sometimes I've prevailed, other times not. I generally favor connecting vents in a larger (usually 4") manifold in the attic space when necessary, with only one, or a maximum of two, roof penetrations, none of which are visible at the front elevation. I really dislike poking unnecessary holes in my roofs.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-25-2021, 06:21 PM   #84
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As I mentioned elsewhere the pandemic put the project on hold... But we intend to start getting quotes after we get immunized.

Being almost a year since this was put aside, we decide to revisit all of our plans and assumptions.

First we have decided not to reconfigure the bathroom layout to save money... That means we have to go with a 30 inch wide tub for the tub/shower combo to get the minimum required 21" between the front of the toilet and the tub...

Not happy about that as we wanted a cast iron tub like the the original 1950's pink 32" wide tub we have (but not pink!), but the options I can find in cast iron in that size are not great. If we had the space needed, I would look into the cost of refinishing that tub... but we don't.

While we don't want a high step over, the ones I can find are too short IMO (~14" with only 8-9" to overflow - existing tub is 16" high with height to overflow of about 12"- enough to make a difference), and I'm not enamored with acrylic tubs ... but we will have to choose something.

If only the bathroom was 4" or 6" wider... Oh well.


Anyway I want to revisit some tile questions.

The tile we are planning to use for both the floor and the lower part of the wall is 8"X16", glazed ink-jet printed porcelain in a brick pattern (50% overlap).

In the tub/shower combo area, the upper part of wall over the accent, would be the same tile BUT 16"X16" rotated 45° to form a "diamond pattern"(see below).

I do know that large format tile should not be overlapped 50% because of lippage...

But I find multiple definitions of large format. One says anything larger than 12"X12" is large format, and 8"X16" is fewer square inches, than that... But another site says if it has a side longer than 15" then it is large format...

I know lippage may or may not be an issue on the floor with 50% overlap depending on how flat the specific 8X16" tile pieces used are, as the size is borderline...

If needed , on the floor , I could live with a 33% overlap, but I think it would make the walls too busy looking, so would rather not have to do that on the wall...

Every reference to lippage I find aways talks about floors... Is lippage a potential issues for walls too?

Given that the 16"X16" tiles for the diamond pattern are definitely large format, is using that diamond pattern on the upper wall a potential issue?

Thanks
- karen
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Unread 01-25-2021, 10:41 PM   #85
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Some discussion about the tile size definition and offset requirement back on page 4, Karen.

Lippage is lippage regardless where the tiles are being set with the noted exception of shower floors sloped to center drains. Requirements are the same for floor or wall.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-25-2021, 11:14 PM   #86
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CX wrote:

Quote:
Lippage is lippage regardless where the tiles are being set with the noted exception of shower floors sloped to center drains. Requirements are the same for floor or wall.
Thanks CX. I'll go back and take a look...

Is lippage likely to be an issue if here is no offset at all as in the 16x16 Diamond pattern?

I thought there might be, but maybe I am seeing a potential issue where there is is none?

As for the floor and lower wall pattern, I will ask the installer what he thinks when he has the actual tiles in hand.

-Karen
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Unread 01-25-2021, 11:32 PM   #87
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Lippage depends upon the flatness of the substrate, the flatness of the tile, the layout of the tiles, and the ability of the installer, Karen. There can be a lot or there can be none, depending upon those factors.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-26-2021, 08:52 AM   #88
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Thanks CX...

If we have to we can do the lower part of the wall with 33% Overlap...

But that complicates things in terms of the upper wall design, as until install time we can't know if the diamonds will work, but if they don't because of lippage, the 16X16" tiles will already have been bought for that pattern... I guess we have to decide if it's worth the risk...

OK a different question.

We would like to use a marble pencil above and below the accent strip (the porcrelain tile simulates marble), at least outside of the tub/shower combo area (not sure if it would be a good idea in the shower/tub combo).

Outside the shower the top pencil would be the cap to transition to bare wall.

But we don't want it to stick out too much- both for looks and because the bathroom is narrow. I don't think we want a depth more than 1/2" at most.

Do pencil tiles come in different depths (distance sticks out from the wall)?

Typically when I see pencil dimensions, only 2 are listed.. In the type marble pencil we are interested in (Diana Royal) I see them listed as either 12"X 1/2" or 12" X 3/4". The 12" is obviously length

Does the second dimension refer to the depth or the height? If it is the height, is the depth standard? If not is there a standard relationship between height and depth?

Thanks,
-Karen
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Unread 01-26-2021, 09:11 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen
...as until install time we can't know if the diamonds will work, but if they don't because of slippage, the 16X16" tiles will already have been bought for that pattern...
'Fraid I'm not understanding that, Karen. If you actually mean slippage, there are ways to prevent that and it's always a consideration on vertical installations. If, instead, that's a typo and you meant lippage, that's simply a common stacked layout from that perspective, your wall is just turned 45 degrees. If you can't set those tiles without lippage in that pattern, you can't set them without lippage at all.

As for the "pencil trim," that would depend entirely upon whose trim you're looking at. I've used similar trim in Travertine in at least three different sizes and shapes and I've seen ceramic trim in several more. You'll really need to find something you like and verify the actual size and shape. Your 12"X1/2" I would guess to be 12 inches long and a half-inch wide, but how deep it might be I couldn't guess. If it's ceramic, it's probably about as thick as the associated field tile, but that's certainly not a guarantee. If it's a stone tile, it could be a half-inch thick, but it's likely to be a good bit thicker.

In any case, I wouldn't bet my installation on any of it until I had a piece in hand.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-31-2021, 05:47 PM   #90
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It looks like we will both likely be fully immunized within about the next 2 month, so we should be able lock down all the details by then, and start getting quotes from contractors.

For the 8" X16" Brick pattern we decided we will go with a 33% overlap. While from what I have seen on the net with this tile we could probably get away with a 50% overlap without a lippage issue, I want to specify that all tile industry standards for best practices must be followed, so we should do a 33% overlap as the tiles are > 15", though not by much.

So now a couple of likely stupid naive questions which I think I know teh answer but want to be sure...

1) Would doing the 33% pattern such that the grout line spacing does not repeat until every 4th row, be considered a simple pattern?
(I know some quote by complexity of tile pattern)

by that I mean like this and shown in the rendering attached below:
___ ___ ___ ___ ___
_ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___
__ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___
___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___

I would think it would be considered simple but I would like to be sure.

2) Maybe I'm needlessly worried, but i want to know upfront if this will be an issue.

The vanity top will be granite, and is it is only 19 inches deep. The wall which it will be against (see below) will be tiled so I don't want a granite backsplash to save space (and it would mess up teh design!) on the top.

That obviously means the top needs to caulked to the tile.

The vanity (pictured below) has little feet on on the bottom, so although close, it is not actually on the floor so I guess it would not be considered built in, and in theory maybe replaced some day (though likely not by us! The one we are looking at is not cheap, so if we take care of it should last until we can no longer live in the house!)

In this case the tile, although glazed, does not have smooth surface but is a bit "bumpy" to simulate natural stone.

In such a case, if the tile goes behind the vanity will the caulk be able to seal well enough to the vanity top and face of the tile, or would the vanity have to be put in before the tiling, and the bottom edge of the tile (which of course is flat) caulked to the vanity top?

I would think caulking to the tile face would be OK but I can also see that it might be an issue.

The latter would complicate things a lot as the tile would need to be cut for the overhang of the vanity top and to go up against the sides of the vanity.... And that likely would not be great for the vanity, make it difficult to replace if need be, and i would think increase installation cost by a lot!

Thanks
-karen
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