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Unread 04-15-2021, 09:47 AM   #1
fabian55
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Do I Use Something Else Rather Then Panliner In This Case?

Hello, great site with lots of information. I saw some threads similar to my issue but could not find the answer. I'm a handy DIY'er and always do my research for months before starting any project, but I'm a bit confused as to how my shower was originally built and never came across it during my research. I will keep it as short as possible and attached pictures.

I live in South Florida, home was built in the 80's and the shower is recessed with about 4 inches down. I want to put a pan liner but it seems I might not be able to and would have to use a different method.

The issue is, I'm down to the slab okay perfect, so when I put the first slope of deck mud, then I add the pan liner and take it up about 6 inches or more, that's the problem. From the slab, there is about 6 inches of concrete upwards and that's where the wall board is flush with the concrete, so the 6 inches of concrete from slab acts as the wall board per say flush with the upper wall board.

I can run the liner up over 6 inches and hold it with wood behind the board, but then there would be no way to tile those 6in since the liner is exposed and no board over it. I have the same issue with the curb itself.

Im adamant on putting the pan liner, but based on the structure, I think I have to do it a different way. I would really appreciate any ideas. Thank You
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Unread 04-15-2021, 03:49 PM   #2
cx
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Welcome, Fabian.

You have a "typical" Florida shower setup that was probably constructed with no waterproofing at all for the receptor or walls. Lots and lots of threads about those here on the forums.

A photo or two from farther back to give some perspective and show us what we're looking at in your photos would help.

I'm likely to recommend a direct bonded waterproofing membrane waterproofing membrane, keeping the dropped receptor and removing the curb, but I'll wait for more photos.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-15-2021, 07:01 PM   #3
Davy
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With the shower floor recessed, the edge of the concrete sometimes extends too far into the shower. You might can fur the wall out more (looks like it's already been done some) or in the past I've busted some of the concrete off.
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Unread 04-15-2021, 09:11 PM   #4
jadnashua
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You appear to have enough depth to not use a curb in the conventional sense at all with a step down rather than a surface curb rising from the main floor, or a very short one. As CX said, though, the easier way to waterproof this all would be to use a surface bonded membrane like Kerdi, and not us a conventional clamping drain at all.

Check out www.schlututer.com for some videos on that brand's components and materials. There are other ways to approach this, but I think a surface applied membrane is going to be your easiest, cleanest approach.
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Unread 04-16-2021, 08:39 AM   #5
fabian55
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Thank You. I really appreciate your replies. I will upload some more picture tonight from a farther distance. I was able to figure out that the pieces which stick out 2 inches from the concrete block were not part of the foundation, seems they poured some concrete sort of as a base to put the tile on since, yes, there was no waterproofing when built.

I can now remove them from the 3 walls and add a 2 x 4 ( since its on 11/2 actual), hold the pan liner and match the studs above to have board run down on top of liner, only issue now would be figuring out the curb.

I know its not recommended or such, but I can use modified thinset onto the concrete side of curb going upwards, run the liner up the curb to bond it and then screw a 1/4 durrock so that tile can be added, I know the screws would puncher the liner, I would need to silicone the screws and thinset over them as well. I would purchase a roll of Membrane Fabric and apply along the whole curb as well and Redguard it all.
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Unread 04-16-2021, 12:14 PM   #6
John Bridge
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Hi Fabian,

I would not recommend the conventional pan/liner in your case. I go along with others who have suggested a direct bond waterproofing system along with a surface bondable shower drain.

You cannot make any holes in a conventional liner and plug them with silicone. It just doesn't work.
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Unread 04-16-2021, 01:22 PM   #7
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Hi John, thank you, seems I have to get away from the preferred method. Will research.
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Unread 04-16-2021, 03:45 PM   #8
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Surface bonded membranes have been around since the 1980's, have millions of installations, and are not new. They work when you install them properly, and it isn't really very hard but you do need to do your research. The advantage is that the ENTIRE shower, is waterPROOF just beneath the tile, so, that gives you some peace of mind about what might be used underneath it, as, at least from the top, water won't get to it.

In a cursory look at some of the 'systems', you'll get the impression that their foam pans are a requirement...that is not true. The membrane will work just fine over deck mud as well, and that allows for more easy customization. Another advantage to the system is that you only need ONE mudbed, as the drain does not need or have weepholes, and the liner is designed to accept thinset to bond the tiles in place directly. FWIW, cbu dust is carcinogenic, the boards are heavy, fairly small (4x8' sheets are available, but a pain to use and get home in one piece!), and, while not damaged by being wetted, are NOT waterproof.

Each manufacturer lists acceptable materials that can be used underneath their materials, and at least for Schluter, that includes plain drywall. To skip a step, they do make tileable, foam panels that, can be screwed in place, or, over concrete, applied with thinset on walls that can also help plumb the wall while flattening it that can be a huge time saver. You need to waterproof the seams and screw penetrations.

IMHO, liquid applied waterproofing, while it can work, and may be the best for some circumstances, is more finicky as it takes a fair amount of experimentation to get the two coats, each the required thickness, without pinholes, runs, or voids. Too thick is as bad as too thin, and it's really hard to get the minimum thickness...it's not like paint where you can just keep adding coats...
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Unread 04-16-2021, 06:22 PM   #9
fabian55
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Hi Jadnashua, very informative, I did research and I actually prefer a bonded drain as it seem way better then the standard drain with weep holes. I just saw so many videos and researched so much, I got stuck thinking of only the traditional way, seems my shower can not be done the traditional way..

Will research more and see which bonded option is best.

I cleaned out the shower, removed all the concrete along the baseline, will try to remove that curb tomorrow. The floor was completely wet since builders never waterproofed...
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Unread 04-16-2021, 09:41 PM   #10
jadnashua
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Florida seems to think that the national building codes don't apply to them, and allow showers without liners in some circumstances. Doesn't make sense to me, but hey, I don't live there! One would think that what's good for the rest of the country would be good for FL.
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Unread 04-22-2021, 09:02 AM   #11
fabian55
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Hello, I read forum rules and states not to open a new thread for questions on same project. I have 2 technical questions and would like to have opinion as to which is best.

Using the bonding method not the traditional method, recessed shower on a concrete slab, once ready to waterproof, here are the options Im looking at:

Option 1, Regard or Hydro Ban the entire area including backerboard, pre sloped bed, bonding drain etc. I don't have much experience so Im not sure if this method alone will hold up once or if water gets thru the grouts and into the bed

Option 2, use Laticrete Membrane on the entire area plus add Redgard on the joints, corners etc. I think this is most waterproof but not sure if using both methods combined is an over kill or if one offsets the other and is actually worst to use together

Option 3, use Laticrete Membrane only on the entire area



The other question is in reference to the curb threshold. I removed the unneeded additional 4in of curb that was on top of the slab outside. So now I have only 4in down, in essence, I kinda of still have a curb top. I have about 5in before my bathroom wood floor starts, I will be installing a semi-frameless sliding door and will put threshold for it sit on and a finishing piece on the outer side.

My question is, would it be a good idea to have the Threshold slightly over the curb into the shower about 1/8in so that it does not touch where the Threshold & inner tile grout line meet, this way water drips' directly into shower floor vs dripping down the inner tiles? I think this will help a bit since water is not touching the inner grout lines, but not sure.

Thank You
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Unread 04-22-2021, 12:13 PM   #12
jadnashua
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Believe in the system (assuming you install it properly), so option 3 would be the best. They spent a lot of time and research to ensure it would work and pass the certification tests...why second guess things? Also, not sure how well liquid and sheet membranes really work together long term. I know some people do it, but not sure how well it actually flows around the fleece to the actual waterproof section. I'd run the waterproofing out onto the floor beyond where the door is. Ideally, that horizontal section would be sloped into the pan
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Unread 04-22-2021, 06:22 PM   #13
fabian55
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Hi Jadnashua, thank you for the reply, I did not communicate the second question correctly. Once I waterproofed everything and Im ready to tile and install the Threshold, what I mean is extending the Threshold 1/8 of an inch into the inner side of shower even if slopped 1/4 in so that the water drips directly on to the floor verses dripping down the tile and touching the joining grout lines..Would that help with avoiding water getting thru? Thank You
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Unread 04-22-2021, 06:34 PM   #14
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Fabian, you can certainly do that if you want, but it would be more of an aesthetic consideration than a functional one. If your shower is properly waterproofed, you don't care at all whether water penetrates the grout joints nor how much penetrates which grout joints.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-23-2021, 08:06 AM   #15
fabian55
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Thank You CX, I'll post some pictures in a few weeks, I appreciate the reply..
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