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Unread 04-30-2017, 08:41 PM   #1
Joe 6993
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Walk in shower

Greetings. I'm new to this forum and would like some advise and or reassurance. I've started a bathroom remodel and my progress has surpassed my research and I'm having second thoughts on what I'm doing. The more I read, the more I am wishing I had went a different route. I love the look of tile, but the more I read about water infiltration, possible damage, possible re-do, the more I am questioning myself. For some background, I previously tiled the entrance into the bathroom through the bedroom, and into the bathroom up to the shower install. The previous shower was insert in the wall. I removed the shower stall and added a short knee wall to lengthen the shower . it is now 45" x 60" with a walk-in entrance on the 45 inch end. Glassblock will be above the short knee wall 3 to 4 courses. Now that I have done some deflection research, I find that my 2 x 10 joist, 16 inch on center, with 5/8 subfloor and 15 foot span is not adequate for tile. I plan on adding a support beam midpoint with 2 -2 x 8 beam and Jack post in the crawlspace under that area of the floor. Per the deflection calculator, this quadrupled my L rating and should now be sufficient for tile. My question is regarding the 5/8 inch underlayment. In the shower it's self, should I add another layer of half-inch Dura rock or plywood before I proceed. Due to the weight issue, I have decided to go with a Kerdi shower base to reduce the weight. Settling overtime is inevitable and I want to reduce that possibility as much as possible. I have installed Durack on the walls, mudded the joints corners and niches with mesh fabric and thin set. I then applied several coats of TEC waterproofing membrane. This work has been completed to within 12 inches of the subfloor. I am now ready to proceed with the shower base installation. Is deflection an issue with the Kerdi preformed shower base. Will it be necessary to add the half-inch Dura rock or plywood to the sub floor prior to the Kerdi in stall. My goal is to achieve a barrier free entrance with the slightest slope possible. I had also previously installed and Oaty floor drain with the intentions of using a mud pack base with PVC liner. The weight issue turned me against that whole process. I can remove the Oaty floor drain and reroute plumbing if necessary. By using the Kerdi preformed shower base, do I need to keep the drain in the center or can it be offset to one end to use The existing drain location. The plumbing is in the existing location from the previous shower stall. All water flow will be at one end of the entire shower area. Also, will the transition from the Kerdi shower base and membrane to the Dura rock wall be ok. Any and all advice is much appreciated. Thanks
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Last edited by Joe 6993; 04-30-2017 at 09:04 PM. Reason: Adding a question. I just read that a vapor barrier behind the door rock and a waterproofing coding on the other side is not recommended. Am I in trouble already
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Unread 04-30-2017, 08:42 PM   #2
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Hi Joe,

Welcome!

I moved your post over to the advice forum. Someone will bealong to lend some advice for you.
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Unread 04-30-2017, 09:17 PM   #3
Joe 6993
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Thanks. I'm new to this forum stuff and working from an I phone. All help is appreciated
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Unread 04-30-2017, 09:22 PM   #4
cx
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Welcome, Joe.

Please, please give us some paragraph breaks in those long posts so we can more effectively sort out your information and questions. I'll give it a try, but am likely to miss some of each.

If your joist structure is so weak it cannot tolerate a traditional mud/liner/mud shower receptor, you shouldn't even consider building a shower in that room at all. The difference in weight between a mud shower receptor and one made of Styrofoam is less than having a second person enter that bathroom or shower. Not a valid consideration at all.

While I can probably find you a span table that would indicate your current joist structure meets building code (if we knew the species, grade, and condition of your joists), adding a mid-span support is still a good idea if that's an option.

As for subfloor, not sure what you're calling underlayment. You say you have 5/8ths" subfloor and then speak of 5/8ths" underlayment and then speak of adding CBU or plywood. What exactly do you currently have for a subfloor?

You indicate you want a barrier-free entry. How had you planned to achieve that without cutting into your existing structure or building up the bathroom floor. With a wood framed floor you cannot, by the way, do that while using a traditional shower receptor, but you've already ruled that out by installing your wallboard before building your receptor.

You indicate you want the minimum slope possible. By plumbing code and tile industry standards that will be 1/4" per horizontal foot.

Unless you plan to use a linear drain, you'll want to move your drain to the center of the shower footprint. Consider that you'll need to change to a direct bonded waterproofing membrane shower receptor to manage your barrier-free entry anyway, so moving the drain should be part of that change. And you cannot use an "Oatey floor drain" in any shower receptor application.

I'm not familiar with the TEC liquid applied waterproofing membrane, but it sure doesn't look thick enough on your walls. Did you use any measurement device, such as a wet-film gauge when you applied the material?

It appears that you have polyethylene sheeting behind your Durock wallboard. Not at all a good idea to have such a moisture barrier behind the wallboard when using a waterproofing membrane on the other side.

I'll stop there and you tell me what I'm missing.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-30-2017, 11:22 PM   #5
Joe 6993
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Cx I see your point on the lengthy post. Noted.
Regarding the Joist. Joist are sound and typical Douglasfir two by tens. Deflecto calculator determined 15 foot span was not adequate. By adding a support beam mid point, the span would only be 7 1/2 foot and would be adequate for tile. Does that sound right?

Regarding the subfloor. Underlayment was the wrong terminology. I have a 5/8 tongue and groove ocb subfloor. my question was deflection on 16 inch centers, should I add to the subfloor to reduce that deflection between Joist. Or do I need it with the Kerdi preslopped base pan.

Barrier free was probably wrong terminology again. I was trying to achieve a no curb entry. Somewhat wheelchair accessible. I'm getting older every day. Trying to plan for future needs. The curb is still an option if necessary. I was planning on slopping the floor up to the minimum height required for the Kerdi pre-slope. If I use the Kerdi shower base, the edge height would only be about an inch and three-quarter's, which would only give my entry a three-quarter inch slope from the existing tile floor.

The floor drain can be moved to the center of the footprint without problems. I was trying to utilize the existing drain location from the previous shower stall. The Oaty three-piece drain was required for the PVC liner when I was previously going with a mud pack base and liner.it will be removed, and replaced with a Kerdi drain kit if I go that route. Kerdi tutorials show that the drain location can be offset from center, which only changed the elevation from one side to the other. The bottom row of tile would be cut to fit the difference in elevation's.

The TEC product is similar to Red guard. Brushed or rolled on. I did not use a measuring device. Only two coats have been applied. I planned on re coating the floor and walls properly when the floor was complete.

There is a plastic vapor barrier behind the Duroc. I did that when I installed the Durock based on some previous research. I applied the waterproof membrane on the outside after further researching water infiltration reaching the duroc. Am I screwed at this point? Could I apply a Kerdi membrane over all the Durock to eliminate water infiltration to the Dura rock. Since I have held the wallboard up from the floor 12 inches to complete the floor, I may be able to reach up behind the Dura rock board in the wall cavity and rip some of it out. Again, my progress surpassed my research.
I hope this helps you better understand my situation. Thanks for your reply
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Unread 05-01-2017, 12:29 AM   #6
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Welcome to the forum, Joe.

I'll add a note to CX's advice above: If you number each question, it's easier for us to address each one individually, and the answers will be easier to find by you, or anyone else who reads your thread. Thanks for breaking them up into paragraphs.

5/8" OSB would be inadequate for what you're planning. I would prefer to have 3/4" plywood there, but if you want to leave the OSB in place, I would recommend a minimum of 1/2" plywood over the OSB, screwed every 6" on center to the OSB only and not to the joists underneath. You can accomplish this by using screws that are no more than 1 1/4" long, or intentionally avoiding the joists if you use longer screws.

Look at the ramps that Schluter makes for what you're wanting to do. Might make your project a little easier. You don't mention how much room you have outside the shower, so keep that in mind when you consider a ramp. You don't want to be tripping over it.

You don't want waterproofing on both sides of the wall board. A properly-applied surface membrane is usually best, so the best option would be to get rid of the plastic. You don't have to remove it, just defeat it by cutting it or tearing it so it can't trap moisture. If you can reach up high enough to cut, or just grab it and rip down, that's probably good enough.
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Unread 05-01-2017, 12:47 AM   #7
Joe 6993
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That reply was encouraging Kman. I'm feeling better already!
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Unread 05-01-2017, 01:17 AM   #8
Joe 6993
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The Schluter ramp will work perfect! I've framed out over 6' for the shower area with the wet area less than 5' so the ramp will be within the framed area and not protrude out onto the floor area. Perfect. Almost like I planned it that way. Thanks for that!
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Unread 05-04-2017, 08:23 AM   #9
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I am having trouble understanding the span calculators for beams as it applies to my situation and thought you could offer some insight. I have a 30 foot wide house, with center support beam at 15 feet. Joist are two by tens, 16 inches on center. The bathroom/shower area is in the corner of the house and the room is 14 foot wide perpendicular to the Joist. I want to add a support beam at midpoint (7.5') to support the floor with tile in shower and floor in bathroom and entry.

1) what size auxiliary beam would be adequate in this situation? Two-2x8s supported on Jack post, 2- 2x10s supported on Jack post.

2) are 2 Jack post adequate to support the 14 foot long auxiliary beam span ?

Thanks for you time.
Joe....
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Unread 05-04-2017, 10:01 AM   #10
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Hi Joe,

The building code addresses your situation, take a look at the 2015 International Residential Code Table R602.7(2) "Girder Spans and Header Spans for Interior Bearing Walls". You can find this table by scrolling down through Chapter 6 available here:

https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/doc...de/553/9815776

The part applicable to your situation is the section for supporting "One Floor Only" and for a building width of 20 feet. Now your "building width" for this additional girder is only 15 feet, but since you're tiling the area and want a stiff floor, you won't go wrong using the 20 feet width column.

There are no options in the table for spanning 14', so you'll need to use 3 jack posts and 3 footings. For a span of 7', (2) 2x10s are sufficient, and the table footnotes say that for southern pine that should be #1 grade, or for douglas-fir-larch, hem-fir, or spruce-pine-fir, #2 grade is adequate. Since this is existing construction, I suggest you use kiln dried lumber.

Also, when installing the girder, I suggest using string lines on the bottom of the side of several of the existing joists. That will allow you to jack the girder to straighten the joists, as long as you don't mind "de-settlement" cracks in any finishes directly above that are present at the time of jacking.

As to supporting this girder, Chapter 4 of the IRC covers foundations, but in this case it is easy enough to calculate. If we use a 40 psf live load, a 20 psf dead load (because of the tile), and recognize that the central post is going to carry an area that is 7.5' wide parallel to your joists, and 7' wide parallel to the girder, that makes a design load of 60 psf * 7.5' * 7' = 3150 lbs. For a minimum soil bearing capacity of 1500 psf, that means the footing should be at least 2.1 square feet.

So 18" x 18" would be a good size. The minimum thickness is 6". Plain (unreinforced) concrete footings are allowed, but a small square of #4 rebar at the bottom wouldn't hurt. Just remember that the rebar needs to be be separated from the soil by a cover of at least 3" of concrete. The two end footings could be smaller, say 14" x 14", but I might just make them all 18" x 18".

Cheers, Wayne
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Unread 05-04-2017, 12:26 PM   #11
Joe 6993
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wwitney, So if I'm understanding this correctly, a concrete deck footing pier pad block, which could be purchased at a big box store, would not be adequate for a footing base. My existing crawlspace floor is 4 foot below grade and undisturbed soil. It looks like this code requires me to frame out an 18 x 18 box, 6 inches deep minimum, and pour a concrete footing base for each peer. Would bag mix concrete be sufficient in that application. The preformed concrete deck footing blocks would make life a lot easier.
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Unread 05-04-2017, 03:35 PM   #12
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Hi Joe,

As far as pouring your own isolated footings, you've got the right idea, bag mix would be fine.

If you want to use a precast footing block, that's fine as long as they are big enough. The ones I typically see at big box are only 11" x 11", or 0.84 square feet; maybe you can find bigger ones elsewhere. There's a couple ways you could reduce the required footing area:

1) Check if your soil qualifies for 2000 psf bearing capacity, see Table R401.4.1 of the IRC. If you aren't sure of your soil type, then a local expert should know, such as the building department.
2) Check the dead weight of your final assembly, perhaps 20 psf is higher than required.
3) Add more footings, so each footing carries the design load of a smaller area.

Also, have you considered alternative ways to stiffening your joists? Do your Douglas Fir 2x10 joists have a grade stamp on them? If not, what is their age and exact cross-sectional dimensions? What is the exact unsupported span on the joists, i.e. from the face of the existing girder to the face of the exterior support wall? 15' sounds like a center-to-center measurement.

Cheers, Wayne
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Unread 05-07-2017, 07:00 PM   #13
Joe 6993
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Great info Wayne. That helps me know what direction I should be looking. I'll be headed to the crawl space soon. Thanks
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