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Unread 07-17-2008, 07:42 AM   #1
m_westall
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Center Patio San Francisco

My name is Mark. I have a center patio in my house that is leaking. My center patio is a 4' X 12' open to the sky area located right in the middle of the house and above the garage. There are also 5 windows around the patio area to give sunlight to the house. It is a SF row house in the sunset district. Right now there are stucco walls, concrete floor, a drain and a lead pan to stop water from leaking in the garage. The lead pan has a hole somewhere now. San Francisco only allows metal plumbing (metal drains, copper pipes, iron pipes or gal pipes). I would like to tile this area. The plan I have in my mind is to remove the existing floor to subfloor, remove stucco up 2' on walls, put in some kind of overlay to strengthen the subfloor (advice needed), put a new drain in, put in quarter inch slope mortar bed to drain, put some kind of vinyl pan in, overlap pan with felt chicken wire, float top mortar bed, restucco wall and put in tile. Does this sound correct? I need to do the job before we start getting rain out here so I need to be organized.

Mark
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Unread 07-17-2008, 07:58 AM   #2
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Welcome back, Mark.

I'd be inclined to use one of the deck waterproofing systems from either our friends at the Noble Company or Schluter Systems.

The Noble Company's Noble Deck is the only single-layer waterproofing system I'm aware of that's indicated for use over occupied living space below.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 07-17-2008, 10:51 AM   #3
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CX thanks for the reply and good memory. I haven't posted on this site for quite some time. Do you have any advice as to what kind of drain to use for outdoors? Keep in mind it has to clamping and metal. I am ordering the noble deck and also wondered how high I should bring it up the wall? My worry is the stucco chicken wire over the top of the membrane. It cannot be nailed but needs to have some grab at the bottom where it comes in contact with the mortar bed. I tend to over think things but need to be mentally prepared for foreseen and unforeseen obstacles!
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Unread 07-17-2008, 10:34 PM   #4
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There are still cast iron clamping drains available out there. Folks post pichers of'em alla time. You'll wanna get a Coolie Hat from Noble to use with that clamping drain and NobleDeck.

Or a fella could get hisownself a Kerdi drain and use it with the NobleDeck. Not sure how far your compliance people would push on that. Tell'em it's actually part of the drain pan and not the drain. Connect it with a Fernco to your steel pipe.

Noble may not be real interested in giving you a warranty on the installation if you do that, though.

But if you use all Noble products and do it like Noble tells you to, I think you can get yourownself a really good warranty and prolly some good technical advice to go with it. Our good friend and Noble rep, Eric (e3), will answer your technical questions right here if he sees the thread. He'll also bitch at me for suggesting that heresy about the Kerdi drain.

I'd just turn the membrane four inches or so up the walls and counter-flash down over it with a metal flashing behind the stucco. Is how we treat any other place where a wall meets a roof area, which is essentially what you've got there.

My opinion; worth price charged.

And would you please go to the UserCP above, fine Edit Signature and enter your first name there so's it'll appear in each post and we won't gotta go lookin' for it?
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Unread 12-08-2012, 05:37 PM   #5
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I still have not done this project. I am leaning towards Kerdi. Would Kerdi be able to handle the elements outside or would it be smarter to go with ditra with Kerdi? I live in San Francisco, CA, and weather here is moderate. I posted a picture of the center patio. It is about a 3'X 12' area. I will have to bust out the concrete which is there right now, add 3/4 plywood to strengthen for tiling and float in a huge mortar bed with 1/4" slope to drain. Sorry that the image is turned sideways. This project really scares me since I've never done tile before or a mortar bed.

Thanks,
Mark
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Unread 01-28-2015, 01:45 PM   #6
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Would it be reasonable to do the mortar in sections? Like do the first 3'X3' area one day, the next the second day, third section 3 day and finish the 3'X12' area on the 4th day. Does it harm the mortar integrity doing it in sections?
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Unread 01-28-2015, 07:53 PM   #7
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Welcome back again, Mark.

It'll help if you'll put your geographic location in your User Profile so it will remain permanently in view to help folks answer some types of questions.

I can't tell much of anything from your photo, I'm afraid. You say it shows a drain, but I don't see even that.

Basic principles involved here as far as the ceramic tile industry is concerned. All the direct bonded waterproofing membrane manufacturers I'm aware of, save one, require a primary waterproofing system (a roof) below their waterproofing system when over occupied space. That includes Schluter's system.

As I mentioned a few years ago, the only one I'm aware of that offers a direct bonded waterproofing membrane that does not require a primary waterproofing system is the Noble Company with their NobleDeck. That remains the case today, far as I know and that would be my first choice in your application.

You'd need an adequate structure (we know nothing about it at this point), an adequate subfloor, and then an appropriate drain and sloped mud bed. Over that you'd install your NobleSeal and tile.

While it's possible to do that small mud area in stages, I'd not recommend it. You end up with cold joints between each section and you really wanna avoid that. Granted, you can connect them with some pure Portland cement or thinset mortar and it might work OK with the NobleDeck over it, but I'd still recommend you get one good helper and do it in one try. Three by twelve feet is not beyond the capabilities of two workers who are well prepared.

The drain situation remains essentially the same. If you absolutely must have an all metal drain you can use a cast iron clamping drain or get the special stainless steel bonding flange drain from Schluter. Noble Company has a very robust surface clamping drain that is mostly metal, but it does have a PVC (I think) base. You haven't said what size drain pipe you have and that could be a factor in your selection. Again, I'd wanna talk with my code compliance people to see if some allowance can be made for a non-metalic drain in that application.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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