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Unread 04-26-2012, 12:26 PM   #1
CustomTile
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Tile over Gypcrete

I am bidding on a job and they are wanting to pour gypcrete on the entire first floor with radiant floor heat. My question is can I get in before the heat guys get there tube in and nail metal lathe down where ever there is going to be tile. And if I do that do I still need any kind of crack isolation membrane on the gypcrete before I tile over it. Thanks.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 03:20 PM   #2
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Welcome, Daryl.

Not at all sure why you'd wanna do that. The gypsum installer should be applying his product according to the manufacturer's requirements, and if a ceramic tile floor is to be installed over it, the requirements for that installation should also be followed.

You'll need to be sure all that's been accomplished correctly, as well as insuring the structure and subfloor were adequate prior to the installation of the gypsum underlayment, but you shouldn't be getting involved in the pouring of the gypsum material. You'll also want to know that the proper sealer has been applied to the surface.

I believe the use of an uncoupling or anti-fracture membrane is required in that application, and waterproofing if the situation warrants.

You really want someone should already have specified all of that before you get involved with the tile installation.

Will this be ceramic tile or natural stone?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 05:49 PM   #3
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Thanks for the input. I will not be the one pouring the floor another company will be responsible for that. The subfloor will be structurally sound as it will be a new home built by a reputable builder. The tile to be installed varies from 12x12 to 6x6 and even 160 sq.ft. of micro pebble mosaics. The homeowner does not want the tile to stick up higher then the carpet where the transitions are. I have installed a lot of tile but have not worked around much gypcrete and want to know the proper way to install. I read somewhere that nailing down the metal lathe would prevent any future cracking in the gypcrete, and I can do this because the floor is not yet poured.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 07:05 PM   #4
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The big issue with tiling over gypcrete (on any similar product) is that it is so porous it acts like a big sponge and causes the thinset to fire off too fast. The membrane that is used is more as a sealer (use the term very loosely) than as an anti-fracture. It will dry and bond to the gypcrete and the mortar will bond to it. Laticrete has a one step process, I think it is their sound and crack isolation mortar.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 07:56 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl
Thanks for the input. I will not be the one pouring the floor another company will be responsible for that
In that case I would recommend you remain well clear of that part of the project until the heating system is installed and that gypcrete company tells you the gypsum is ready for a tile
installation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl
The subfloor will be structurally sound as it will be a new home built by a reputable builder.
Many reputable builders are still quite capable of overlooking the additional structural requirements of an installation such as you describe, with substantially increased dead loads to consider. Not saying your guy isn't considering all that, but if you, rather than he, are having to deal with the finished floor height considerations, it wouldn't hurt at all to remind him that you need his floor to meet at least L/360 deflection requirements with all the loading considered, and with that "micro pebble" mosaic area, you might wanna consider treating it as natural stone instead of ceramic tile, decreasing the deflection accordingly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl
The homeowner does not want the tile to stick up higher then the carpet where the transitions are.
Homeowners always want the floor coverings to be flush. In this case, that's a matter for your builder/designer/architect to be sorting out, preferably with your input. In new construction the builder can provide the rough floor heights to deal with any such floor coverings. You cannot.

And again, sealing the gypcrete surface is generally part of the gypcrete installation, not part of the tile installation.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 08:49 PM   #6
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Thanks, I will look into the laticrete brand sealer, have had good luck with there products so far.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 08:59 PM   #7
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Check the Laticrete 125 . Pricey , but good product for gypcrete.
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Unread 04-27-2012, 06:23 AM   #8
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has anyone tried using hydroban by laticrete, i've used it to add waterproof protection to showers and it says it acts as a crack memebrane as well
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Unread 04-27-2012, 06:48 AM   #9
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I have used Hydroban but never in an Over gyp project.

I have had excellent success with Ditra over gyp and every customer has been well pleased.

I trust the Ditra more than a paintable for this particular type of application simply because the amount of spiderwebbing you see in gyp pours and the huge amount of quality variables with each gyp installer means I want the best i can get...and That means DITRA.
Costs more but sometimes it is Worth more and in this type of installation, it is worth FAR More IMHO.

I did several 1200-1800 s/f projects like this a few years back and have returned to inspect them all at 1 year intervals for 3 years running...Not a single problem with any of these installations..not even so much as a miniscule grout crack.

Were the job mine, I would sell the Ditra as the best option for this project.

Add Kerdi band at any seams in and around entryways and Bathrooms ( water area's)
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Unread 04-27-2012, 08:39 AM   #10
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My biggest concern for the master bath they are putting micro mosaic pebbles and if I use Ditra I know the mortar is going to pop through all the gaps and it is going to be a mess to clean up. Cound I skim coat the top of the Ditra, wait overnight and come back snap my lines and tile on top of the skim coat. Another concern I have, I am more of a mud guy, I have ripped out floors done by other installers who used Ditra where the tile and grout cracked so i am kind of hesitant to use and put my name on it
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Unread 04-27-2012, 09:21 AM   #11
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Daryl I would agree with Todd on Ditra for this one. I've also done several big ones like this, no problems. If you replaced a Ditra install in the past then they must have drastically deviated from the instructions. Ditra is my go-to product on any challenging floor where we don't have the height to flush-out with a mud floor (most of 'em). I especially like it for these big hydronic jobs because it gives the whole floor such a great ability to expand and contract with the huge temperature swings it will get. Lay your Ditra parallel to the longest runs to help with that, and even if the gyp is pre-primed, it gets covered in construction and drywall dust, so you want to do it again. I always do 2 coats (applied and watered down per manf instructions for gypcrete), after a *very* thorough vacuum.
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Unread 04-27-2012, 09:22 AM   #12
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Daryl, you really need to locate and read the manufacturer's installation instructions for all those products you intend to use. Ditra, for example, has a minimum size requirement of 2"x2" for tiles installed over it.

Filling the Ditra waffles with thinset mortar and allowing it to cure is an acceptable method but not the manufacturer's first recommendation.

Ditra will not cause grout cracking any more than will a CBU or mud floor. If the subflooring under the Ditra or CBU or Mud is inadequate, or if the installation is not correctly done, a tile installation failure is, of course, likely.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-28-2012, 08:43 AM   #13
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It looks like the best way to do it, would be to put a coat of Laticrete Hydroban on the gypcrete then Ditra. Any advice on the area where the micro pebble mosaics are going?
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Unread 04-28-2012, 11:05 AM   #14
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Daryl, one of the most important part is to run the heat before the installation starts.
Was that said before?
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Unread 04-28-2012, 01:29 PM   #15
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Don't know about any necessity to operate the hydronic heating system before the tile installation is begun, but I do know it's absolutely necessary to wait the minimum cure/dry time indicated by the gypsum material manufacturer before operating the hydronic heating system or installing the tile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl
It looks like the best way to do it, would be to put a coat of Laticrete Hydroban on the gypcrete then Ditra.
I can't imagine why a fella would wanna do that, Daryl. Give more hints, eh?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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