Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 12-07-2008, 11:18 AM   #1
PitBull
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 6
Questions about missing PEI rating for some tile I'm trying to buy.

Hi,
This is my first post here and also my first tiling project.
I finally found the tile I want at a very good price.
It's ceramic tile made in Spain by Geologica (a.k.a. Geotiles). I asked the owner of the store what the PEI rating is and he said it was 4. However, nothing on the boxes indicates anything about PEI anywhere. Additionally, he has nothing on file for that tile that references the PEI rating. The U.S. importer/distributor for that brand is supposed to get the factory in Spain to fax something to the store about the product description.

Now that you’ve suffered though my rambling, sorry, here’s the question; is there another system of rating surface wear resistance besides the standard PEI rating and if so how does it correlate to a PEI rating?
I’m really reluctant to just take the seller’s word for it. Being my first tiling project and in a semi-difficult room I have enough apprehension already without adding tile of an unknown rating to it.

I could just forget it and go to another store but this tile has the color and texture I REALLY want and I haven’t found anything else that even comes close anywhere else.

Thanks for anything you can tell me.
PitBull is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 12-07-2008, 11:38 AM   #2
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 92,627
Welcome, Pitbull. Please put a first name in a permanent signature line for us to use.

Your tile may not have a PEI rating.

First of all, is it a glazed tile?


My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2008, 03:43 PM   #3
PitBull
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 6
It is glazed. If it doesn't have a PEI or some kind of surface wear rating how would I or any other customer know whether it's suitable for use or not? It is shown as floor tile on the manufacturers website but I can't find the website again.

Thanks for replying.
__________________
Jeff
PitBull is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2008, 04:24 PM   #4
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 92,627
Well, Jeff....................you wouldn't.

The PEI (Porcelain Enamel Institute) rating is for the glaze of the tile only. Hasn't to do with the tile itself at all. If the manufacturer submits the tile for testing to that standard, a rating can be assigned and will likely be advertised on the box.

For unglazed tiles there is an Abrasive Hardness test (ASTM C-501) to which your tile would have been subjected were it tested to meet ANSI standards. As such it would necessarily have scored high enough to meet the general standard for the type of tile it is.

If the tile was not tested to ANSI standards, you can be certain that whatever is in that box is exactly what is in that box. Nothing more, nothing less. The manufacturer can, of course, say whatever he likes about his product on his packaging.

Might be very fine tile, indeed, but in this country if it's not been tested to those standards we simply don't know.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2008, 04:33 PM   #5
ceramictec
Tampa Florida Tile Contractor
 
ceramictec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 26,464
Hey Jeff,
Quote:
Geologica (a.k.a. Geotiles)
which line of the Geotiles ?

all glazed tile should have a PEI rating.
if it's a ‘through body’ porcelain PEI ratings are not available as they are very hard wearing tile.
also the PEI has nothing to do with the body of the tile just the Glaze.
the body is defined as: non-vitreous, semi-vitreous, vitreous & impervious.



N0TE - the letters P.E.I. stand for Porcelain Enamel Institute.

* The P.E.I. ratings are derived from a combination of tests that not only address the physical wear of the glaze surface itself, but also include a visual wear of the glaze surface appearance after the test.
* The wear ratings are listed on all of our loose tile labels, literature & sample boards. This takes all of the guesswork out of selecting the right tile for the right application.

IMPORTANT: The P.E.I. wear rating of tile does not include the slip resistance, body moisture absorption and/or the breaking strength of the product. In other words, the P.E.I. rating does not necessarily determine the over all quality or price, only the glaze durability. Some of the most expensive and luxurious tiles in the world rate only P.E.I. I or II
__________________
Brian
........
..........Tampa Florida Tile Installation
..............^^--Check out our Blog--^^
Tampa, Florida installer of Schluter Kerdi/Kerdiboard waterproofed showers
Tampa, Florida installer of Laticrete HydroBan/HydroBan board waterproofed showers
ceramictec is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2008, 05:28 PM   #6
PitBull
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 6
Thanks, CX and Brian, for your input and expertise,

The name of the Geotile (or Geologica) brand tile in question is called “Detroit Rustic”. For whatever it’s worth, the color of the glazed surface is close to the same reddish brown color (but with a little orange) as the ceramic (not porcelain) base material with some surface texture added. It bears slight resemblance to terra cotta tile but it’s not. The tile width/length is 17-5/8” and the thickness is .395”. I did notice that the date on the boxes is 2005 so it might be left over from what someone wasn’t able to sell all of.
The dealer says he’s been in the business for 24 years and that it looks and feels like PEI 4 but I don’t take much comfort in that because I’ll have to live with it if he’s wrong or just telling me that to sell it.

So unless he can get some satisfying info from the factory it looks like this tile isn’t going to be on my floor. Too bad because it’s the tile I really want.


Anyhow, I'm sure that as the project gets into the actual implementation phase I'll have more questions about installation and whatnot.

Thanks again.
__________________
Jeff
PitBull is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2008, 05:31 PM   #7
Davestone
Florida Tile & Stone Man
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Naples Fl.
Posts: 22,690
Sometimes i will take my keys out and try to scratch it, if i can't, i feel the surface is fairly tough,but not very scientific.
__________________
Dave



http://Davestonestile.com
Davestone is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2008, 05:40 PM   #8
ceramictec
Tampa Florida Tile Contractor
 
ceramictec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 26,464
Jeff,

a PEI of 2 or 3 would be good for a residential home floor.


PEI I: Floor coverings in areas that are walked on essentially with soft soled footwear or bare feet without scratching dirt (e.g. residential bathrooms and bedrooms without direct access from outside).

PEI II: Floor coverings that are walked on by soft soled or ‘normal’ footwear with, at the most, occasional small amounts of scratching dirt (e.g. rooms in living areas of homes but with the exception of kitchens, entrances and other rooms which may have a lot of traffic). This does not apply to abnormal footwear (e.g. hobnail boots).

PEI III: Floor coverings in areas that, with normal footwear are walked on more often with small amounts of scratching dirt (e.g. residential kitchens, halls, corridors, balconies). This does not apply to abnormal footwear.

PEI IV: Floor coverings in areas that are walked on by regular traffic with some scratching dirt so that the conditions are more severe than class III (e.g. entrances, commercial kitchens, hotels).

PEI V: Floor coverings that are subject to severe pedestrian traffic over sustained periods with some scratching dirt, so that the conditions are the most severe for which glazed floor tiles may be suitable (e.g. public areas such as shopping centres, hotel foyers).
__________________
Brian
........
..........Tampa Florida Tile Installation
..............^^--Check out our Blog--^^
Tampa, Florida installer of Schluter Kerdi/Kerdiboard waterproofed showers
Tampa, Florida installer of Laticrete HydroBan/HydroBan board waterproofed showers
ceramictec is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2008, 05:46 PM   #9
ceramictec
Tampa Florida Tile Contractor
 
ceramictec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 26,464
I would email them and ask them what their PEI rating is for the Geotile Geologica Detroit Rustic

info@geotiles.com < info@geotiles.com>
__________________
Brian
........
..........Tampa Florida Tile Installation
..............^^--Check out our Blog--^^
Tampa, Florida installer of Schluter Kerdi/Kerdiboard waterproofed showers
Tampa, Florida installer of Laticrete HydroBan/HydroBan board waterproofed showers
ceramictec is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2008, 07:46 PM   #10
PitBull
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 6
Davestone,
I have a sample so I did the “key test” as you mentioned. I laid it on a flat surface under good light and took a car key and tried some small 1/2" scratches.
I tried to be as methodical as possible with what I have available and my ignorance of tile.
The first attempt with moderate force and a few subsequent tries with substantially more force, like I put some weight behind it, then I used the tip of a knife blade.

Results;
1) The moderate pressure single car key scratch cannot be seen with the unaided eye at a distance of approx. 10” but can be seen as a thin pencil line with 5X magnification.

2) The heavy pressure single car key scratch attempt shows up with the unaided eye as a very thin dark “pencil line” but no scratch can be felt with my finger no matter how hard I try. Some of the line could be rubbed off and it may actually be metal from the key.

3) I took the key and scraped it back and forth with heavy pressure in a 1/2 inch line 25 times to try and wear some material off but none came off that I can tell. Visually it only left a heavier “pencil line” than the single scratch method and some of the line rubbed off like before.

4) I used the tip of my pocket knife blade and tried to dig into it with 25 hard passes in a 1/2” line in 2 places. That made the same visible pencil line but thicker and a very ,very, small scratch with negligible depth could barely be felt with my finger and that may have been my imagination. It dulled the tip of my knife blade a little, though.

After rubbing them, all of the marks made are nearly invisible unless you look hard for them.

I know you’re all probably rolling on the floor laughing but if this test has any merit at all this seems like pretty tough tile as far as the glazing toughness goes.
I have nothing else to go on for now and may never.
And, yes, i like the look of this tile so I'm trying to justifly buying it.



If you can stop laughing long enough, please tell me what you think because I need to get some tile and get started on this project.

I did notice under magnification a crosshatching pattern of very small dots on the entire glazed surface. This is totally invisible with the unaided eye at any distance or light.

Also, without magnification I noticed more imperfections, aside from the designed texture, than I’d seen before but that’s just one tile.

Ceramictec,
About the rating; this tile will go on the great room, foyer, and hallway floors so it’ll see enough use over time to raise my concern on wear. I’d settle for PEI 3 but I don’t want to chance anything less since I want to install tile without having to be constantly mindful of it and I don’t ever want to ever have to replace it.

I did send an e-mail to the manufacturer on Friday evening right after I found out that tile has no PEI rating on the boxes but I don’t expect a reply until at least Monday if they reply at all.
What I need to do is to get at least the great room done and back to normal before Christmas with a few days to spare. I'd even settle for getting 2/3 of that room done for now. The foyer and hall can be done later.

I'll have other questions but I’ll start a 2nd thread for those under a heading not dedicated to the PEI issue.

Thanks to both of you for your help,
__________________
Jeff
PitBull is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2008, 07:57 PM   #11
John Bridge
Mudmeister
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Rosanky, Texas
Posts: 68,252
Send a message via AIM to John Bridge
Hi Jeff,

I guess I'm blind. I don't think I've ever seen a PEI rating on a package. Tile distributors have a spec book where various ratings are listed for the products they sell, but you will seldom if ever find it on the packaging.
John Bridge is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2008, 08:34 PM   #12
ceramictec
Tampa Florida Tile Contractor
 
ceramictec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 26,464
Quote:
I know you’re all probably rolling on the floor laughing but if this test has any merit at all this seems like pretty tough tile as far as the glazing toughness goes.
I have nothing else to go on for now and may never.
And, yes, i like the look of this tile so I'm trying to justifly buying it.

If you can stop laughing long enough, please tell me what you think because I need to get some tile and get started on this project.
your test is good if you happen to fall with a key and knife in your hand.
we can call it "the Jeff Test".
most metals leave metal marks on tile that are a pain to get off.

Quote:
I did send an e-mail to the manufacturer on Friday evening
remember Spain is 5 to 6 hours ahead of us. you might have an email when you wake up if there Customer Service is good.
__________________
Brian
........
..........Tampa Florida Tile Installation
..............^^--Check out our Blog--^^
Tampa, Florida installer of Schluter Kerdi/Kerdiboard waterproofed showers
Tampa, Florida installer of Laticrete HydroBan/HydroBan board waterproofed showers
ceramictec is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-08-2008, 05:44 AM   #13
jgleason
Retired Moderator - Theatre Guy (and computers)
 
jgleason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weare, NH
Posts: 8,883
Hi Jeff,
To make your test of that tile useful, get a tile sample of something that has a known PEI of 3 and perform the same test on it. If results are the same then you can assume the tile you want would get a similar rating. Close enough for government work at least.
jgleason is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-08-2008, 06:01 AM   #14
ddmoit
Veteran DIYer -- Schluterville Graduate
 
ddmoit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: SE Tennessee
Posts: 8,884
Quote:
If results are the same then you can assume the tile you want would get a similar rating.
Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?
__________________
Dan - a DIYer in SE Tennessee
ddmoit is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-08-2008, 08:22 AM   #15
jgleason
Retired Moderator - Theatre Guy (and computers)
 
jgleason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weare, NH
Posts: 8,883
A classic! One of my favorites.
jgleason is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:59 PM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC