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Unread 07-09-2020, 08:17 PM   #1
Snap845
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Shower wall help

Hi I'm in need of some advice, I've been reading posts here for the last few weeks be just can find the info I need. So here it goes, I have a addition on my house that will be the master bedroom and two bathrooms my problem is the master shower and the main bathroom tub/shower are up against the original house wall that still has (looking from the bathrooms) 1/2 ply, fiberglass insulation, plastic vapor barrier and then the sheetrock. My plan was or is to use Hardie backer over the plywood with a layer of 30 lb felt in between the two, the plywood is solid and smooth but I don't know what to do about having two vapor barriers (the whole house has felt under the siding so maybe that's not a problem) and on top of all of that I wanted to use redguard to seal the backer because of niches. I know that's allot to try to process and I'm not sure I explained it properly. Also the shower will have a mud pan so can I redguard the bottom edge of Hardie before imbedding it in the floor to stop and wicking?
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Unread 07-09-2020, 09:47 PM   #2
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Welcome, Steve.

A geographic location in your User Profile to better evaluate the wall package you'll have there.

We'll also need to know what type of shower receptor you plan. You say you'll have a mud bed, but that doesn't tell us whether you plan a traditional mud/liner/mud type of receptor or if you plan to use the RedGard as your receptor waterproofing as well. That will also tell us whether you can bury your Hardiebacker in your mud pan.

I'm curious why you'd want to install the roofing felt behind your backerboard if you plan to use the direct bonded waterproofing membrane on the inside of the shower walls.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 07-09-2020, 10:05 PM   #3
jadnashua
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Having the plywood between two moisture barriers probably isn't a good idea.

Personally, I'd probably choose a different cbu. The industry bible (TCNA Handbook) has a separate methodology for fiber-cement boards like Hardie...if you want to use it, you should use that method. If you want to make things easier, use a different cbu and then, you can embed it in the top mud bed to hold it in place easier.
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Unread 07-10-2020, 05:55 AM   #4
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Sorry about that, im in up state ny. I was going to do typical pvc liner over a pre taper, the shower is about 32x66 with a 30" opening on the long side oh yea and 24" linear drain that is center perpendicular to the back wall. My thought with the felt was to have a barrier so thr plywood cant wick any water from the hardie. The plywood is what really messing me up but unfortunly it would be quite the processs to remove. I suppose i can redisign and try to get the ply out of the equation i would rather rip things out now rather than rip it out because of rot. So by using durock it will simplify things? Is using redguard as the receptor ok it doesnt seem like its as solid as a pvc liner? Thanks again
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Unread 07-10-2020, 11:57 AM   #5
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Generally, you do not want organic materials trapped between two moisture barriers. How best to resolve that, if indeed it should be, I'll leave up to others with more experience.

I much prefer to make the entire shower waterPROOF rather than water resistant (well, the pan is waterproof, but the top layer is normally damp forever once you start to use it). I feel much more comfortable using a sheet membrane where the critical thing is the seams versus having to paint something on. Custom Building Products has instructions on how to build a shower using their products...read it, then decide. On any paint-on waterproofing, it is critical to get each coat applied between the min/max wet film thickness without pinholes, and runs are not good, either. More coats are not good. It's harder than you might think getting the proper thickness without pinholes or runs. You need to verify while doing it with a wet film thickness gauge (they're cheap but you need to know how to use the tool!) to see if your technique is correct.
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Unread 07-10-2020, 01:05 PM   #6
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I'm a 3rd generation roofer (probably why I'm putting felt paper everywhere) so I agree 100% water proof is what I'm going for. I just need to figure out what I need to do here. So the next thing I'm going to do is open up the walls get the plywood out and when I'm in there I'll pull the insulation out to get at the plastic vapor barrier on the bedroom side and at least slice it up if not remove it completely. Is it ok to reinstall the unfaced insulation? So to build a water proof shower can I still use a cbu or do I need to go with something like kerdi?
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Unread 07-10-2020, 02:33 PM   #7
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A conventional shower with a liner is not damaged by being wetted. Both the structure beneath the tile on the walls can get damp (thus the need to protect what's behind it), and, the setting bed of a conventional shower above the liner, typically 1-1/4 to 1-1/2" thick is porous and will get damp after regular use (thus, the weep holes in the drain assembly).

OTOH, a waterPROOF shower has a continuous layer of waterproofing over the entire surface immediately beneath the tile (well, there's thinset holding the tile on!), so there's much less that can get damp.

Should you decide to go with something like Kerdi, Schluter has had it tested and certified to be installed over plain drywall. You can use cement board if you really want to, and that's also in the certification statement. But, drywall is readily available in larger sheets and works just fine in this application and meets the building codes throughout the USA. There's one other sheet waterproofing that allows the use of drywall there, but none of the liquid applied waterproofing products have had theirs certified to work over drywall...they all require cement board. Schluter has premade pans, or you can make your sloped surface out of deck mud (preferred by many as it is less expensive and more easily adapted to the drain location and can correct any hiccups in the original surface that may not be flat or level).

Some look at surface applied membranes as something new and exotic...they've been around for about 30-years now. There's a lot of history of them working around the world.

Building a shower is a lot of good workmanship, and it's not rocket science, but is unforgiving for errors or misunderstandings. So, it's good you're asking questions. Don't proceed until you have a good feel. A conventional shower works, as do the other methods listed in the industry bible. They each have their high points, and any of them will succeed IF you follow all of the steps correctly. They're not that hard, just exacting.
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Unread 07-10-2020, 02:46 PM   #8
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Steve, you can certainly do that if you want, but I'm not sure it's necessary. That wall will no longer be an outside wall exposed to severe cold as was the case before your addition, but will be another interior wall and as such won't develop the vapor drive you would expect of a wall between a shower an the outside elements. There will still be some, and it would still be better not to have the vapor barrier material (it's not a vapor barrier) on the other side of the wall, but I don't think it would be fatal in your application.

The roofing felt behind the CBU would only be useful if you were building a shower with a traditional shower receptor and #15 felt would be sufficient in that application and you'd want something other than Hardiebacker for your wall board. But if you change to a direct bonded waterproofing membrane for your receptor, preferably a sheet-type, you would eliminate that felt and provide an actual waterproof wall that could, with the right membrane, reduce the vapor entering your wall cavity to nearly zero.

Even a membrane such as Kerdi with it's higher permeability would make me comfortable in your application with the vapor barrier material on the opposite side of an interior wall.

You could even use such a membrane on the walls with a traditional shower receptor if you wanted, but that makes less sense to my thinking.

Removing the plywood sheathing on the existing wall would also eliminate the original shear wall bracing, which may or many not make any difference depending upon how the addition was done. Leaving it there could be problematic behind the CBU wallboard in your shower, but maybe not.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 07-10-2020, 03:41 PM   #9
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First I need to thank you guys for being so helpful. So if I'm gathering all of this correctly I'm ok with leaving the original wall envelope alone from sheetrock, plastic, insulation to plywood or still remove the ply? Then I need to lose the felt paper that's over the ply install the Hardie (I have 4x8s) and use a membrane over top, what membranes are recommended for this? And does the membrane go over the floor too or just the walls and use a pvc liner in the mud?
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Unread 07-10-2020, 07:51 PM   #10
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YOu have to choose your shower build method. If you want to use your Hardiebacker, you have to follow that method which means you cannot embed the Hardie within the mud bed. If you choose to use something like Kerdi over your walls, you'd also want to use it on the floor and curb to complete their system. That also means using their drain assembly. Then, the entire interior of the shower is waterproof, assuming you do it properly.
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Unread 07-11-2020, 07:15 AM   #11
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So I plan to go with a membrane on the surface now, I would much rather waterproof than water resistant. Is there any way a non kerdi drain can be used with a membrane? I already have a fairly expensive linear drain that my wife picked out. Can the Hardie be imbedded in the pan with a membrane or that still needs to be cement board?
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Unread 07-11-2020, 07:52 AM   #12
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Steve,

If you intend to use a surface applied membrane for the walls AND shower floor I'd suggest, rather strongly, that you use a drain designed for that system.

Yes, if you're using membrane on the walls and floor I see no reason you couldn't embed the Hardie in the bottom (and only) bed of mud. Remember, however, that the Hardie panels for walls are less than 1/2" thick so they may cause you some grief if they will be abutting 1/2" drywall. If they will be you might consider a CBU instead.
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Unread 07-11-2020, 12:22 PM   #13
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Ok so kerdi might be out then, can red guard or ardex 8+9 be used as a liner? If so can I do a pre slope, install the backer and then red guard or ardex 8+9 the pre slope and walls as one and then put my deck mud down over top? Just like a liner but up the walls, that way I can use the drain I have because the liner style drain flange is already glued and set. Thanks
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Unread 07-11-2020, 02:31 PM   #14
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I've seen different types of linear drains. Some sit right on top of a regular 3 piece, 2 inch clamping drain. Is that what you have? Since you have bought the drain, you'll need to use the system that fits it. Can you post a picture of your drain?
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Unread 07-11-2020, 05:46 PM   #15
Snap845
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I'm not sure how to post a pic. It's a 3 piece flange with a stainless drain, It's not this exact one but it mounts the same way.
https://www.amazon.com/Ushower-Linea...linear&sr=8-13
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