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Unread 11-14-2014, 04:51 PM   #31
tileaz
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Brad, Roberto, you both are going in the right direction. A slower rapid set was discussed in the meetings. Let me give you more context in the meeting we had. One of the biggest issues discussed is edge crushing between these tiles, the answer given right now for floor tile installations is to fill the joints and to use epoxy grout. The use of epoxy grout will slow the cure time as it takes longer for the mortar to hydrate, that is a reason rapid set is discussed as it is a more chemical dry than a normal hydration. Roberto, your points are right on, I had a sidebar conversation with a couple of tile manufacturers outside the meeting and discussed maybe a micro bevel at the edges of these tiles to help deflect the force on the square edge of the tile, the thought was well received. I do not know if this would be possible. We are dealing with a couple of issues from my point of view, the mortar setting up before the tile is set and on the back end the mortar not curing fast enough to allow traffic in a timely manner. I believe the mortar mfr's will find an adhesive to work. Again, this is not to say that the thin porcelain cannot be set and used, but some more back up is needed. This forum is a great way to flush out the issues and useable ideas to bring forth to the industry. I do have faith these issues will be worked out for the best of the industry and especially the tile contractor who is taking the brunt of the liability on these installations.
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Unread 11-14-2014, 06:01 PM   #32
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James, these inputs are great . It lets us understand a little more of the common concerns we are facing.

What I did observe is that the fresh rapid mortar -- under a month or so -- will definitely cure faster than a 6 or 8 month old one . Maybe the trick for now is to use a let's say 5 to 6 month old rapid setting mortar -- testing one batch for reference is always good -- for the TPT . It should dry in a 24 hours period , but I've also seen strange things happening .

The micro bevel vs. the square edge will definitely help , but I think it will have more resistance from designers or architects . And with the desire of having a '' no joint '' look -- 1mm or less -- , the micro bevel will make them even harder to install . I am also concerned about the lengths of the piece for a precise micro bevel . I am not sure how they can accomplish that -- maybe we should do it by hand -- , but the pricing of the unit will probably also increase .
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Unread 11-14-2014, 06:06 PM   #33
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We haven't been brave enough to bid any floors, but we've bid a few projects and on each one we've put enough money in the job to either barely cover or make big profit...depending on the outcome. It's such a crap shoot right now until we could get several under our belt. Handling on site condition is the biggest wild card. On walls, Crossville has stressed manpower and site conditions to be optimal. Getting the 50s/f of thinset up in a timely manner is possible, but expensive. Tenting and portable AC isn't included in every job.

Is a combination of rapid inside the halo and standard set around the edge possible?

I made the comment about flooding the floor after thinking about a product for the pool industry I recently ran across that produces a "silica-hydro gel" inside shotcrete tanks to prevent moisture migration. The language led me to believe the addition of the product created a byproduct to fill voids...anyway my point is...you're right. I don't want to do floors until someone gets clever enough to alleviate fears.

How much do you think it would impact curent manufacturers, racing to produce TPT here in the states in the largest dimensions, to put a limit on size?
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Unread 11-14-2014, 06:39 PM   #34
Art of Stone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Ernie, all of my installers are CTEF certified. We have a tremendous amount of experience in the last 31/2 years of installing thin porcelain. All of the things I have learned and put out are based on my people's experience on actual thin tile installations, these are not my theories. Again, let me reiterate that my place of business is in Phoenix, at no time do we ever spread 50 sq ft of mortar out before we install anything. We can agree to disagree, that is fine, but I will have to defer to my surroundings and to jobsite conditions.
I think it is great that you have invested in your work force via CTEF, James. We sponsor the CTI program as we believe education is key, to any measurable success.
Having said that, the CTI will not prepare one for Thin Tile installations.
I expect the ACT will soon provide the best practices for this installation type.

I am wondering within the 3-1/2 years of installations of thin tiles, how much of it was 3.5mm and how much 5.5mm and have you experienced excessive failure on either?
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Unread 11-14-2014, 07:21 PM   #35
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Re: Post 29: Roberto, I pointed out the earlier post only because you appear to still be confusing setting and curing. Steve Taylor was not giving you an opinion, nor was his comment proprietary in any way nor intended to represent any group of setting material manufacturers. It was just an explanation of part of the chemistry of Portland cement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberto
I've seen ones which in 12hours are done curing
Not if they were Portland cement mixes. They don't do that, which is what Steve was trying to explain. They might well take an initial set well before that time, but they will be curing far beyond even the customary 28 day period when the industry designates them as fully cured.
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Unread 11-15-2014, 08:31 AM   #36
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Kelly , there is no confusion I know of , but I am surprised of what appears to be just a general answer .


Quote:
Originally Posted by CBP webpage
Choose rapid-setting mortars for time-critical installations with minimal downtime. These mortars can provide thin-set and medium bed options that cure quickly, allowing same-day grouting and use.
From here


Do you think the cure quickly should be interpreted as 28 days or more ? If I read the TDS , the only mention of other specific times is 14 days for submerged applications .

Other mortars allows the submerging in just 3 days .
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Unread 11-15-2014, 09:20 AM   #37
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I think that particular "cure quickly" is a misstatement on the part of the technical writer, truth be known. But I don't work there.
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Unread 11-15-2014, 11:04 AM   #38
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There is a confusing issue ..... how do you make the difference in between '' misstatements '' or facts.

I cannot take it as a misstatement if all what is about , IS the written document , data sheet , technical bulletin or any other form , excluding the verbal one . This is very important when we have to make distinctions in between applications or mortar choosing .


Also , the skinning over is another example of used language where written description of what constitutes it , is in need .
Is it , when the mortar does not remain plastic , forms a whitish and darker look skin , or just a '' skin '' looking film ? Maybe all of the above , but when in contact with the fresh mortar , back buttered or otherwise , some may work and some may do not.
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Unread 11-16-2014, 01:05 PM   #39
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Ernie, we have mostly done approximately 65 installs of 3.5 as 5.5 is relatively a newer product. Most of our installs are vertical with the 3.5 and all but one have been 1x1 meter or less including a couple of floor installations that were tile over tile. The only failure we have had is with the 1x3 meter exterior. The material is cracking because of movement either in the substrate or the tile itself. Now, I consider one failure to many so I do not know what excessive failure means. I do know of at least 6 large failures right now in the US from various sizes and thicknesses that I cannot comment on due to confidentiality. If you would like to get some more answers, we have a Technical Committee meeting in Vegas before Surfaces. This is my invitation to you Ernie and others on this forum to attend the meeting on Monday the 19th of January. Please note that I am on the subcommittee helping to develop standards for the ACT Certification on thin tile. I am also on the subcommittee for helping to develop TCNA, and ANSI standards for the installation of thin tile. I have attended meetings for the last four years to try to figure this out. Ernie, I have my own biases when it comes to the installation of this thin material, but I also understand this is the future of tile installation. Please correct me if I am wrong but I feel as though you are questioning my veracity, I hope that is not the case, I work on these committees and on these standards for the good of our industry and most of all for the good of tile contractors and installers.
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Unread 11-16-2014, 04:00 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James
The use of epoxy grout will slow the cure time as it takes longer for the mortar to hydrate,...
James, I'm afraid you've lost me on that one. I can see that it would take longer for the polymers to dry, but shouldn't have any effect on the speed of hydration, seems to me.
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Unread 11-16-2014, 10:23 PM   #41
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Quote:
I think that particular "cure quickly" is a misstatement on the part of the technical writer, truth be known. But I don't work there.
Caught my eye too, Kelly. You're absolutely correct in the technical sense, but it's become common terminology in the trade (for instance on the back of most bags of mortar) to use "cure" or "cured" in the sense of 'when is it cured enough for use'. I think it's used enough that way to be an industry standard.
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Unread 11-17-2014, 06:57 AM   #42
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If your going to install a 108" 3.5 mm tile you better think about both shrinkage and cure.
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Unread 11-17-2014, 08:04 AM   #43
Art of Stone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Please correct me if I am wrong but I feel as though you are questioning my veracity, I hope that is not the case, I work on these committees and on these standards for the good of our industry and most of all for the good of tile contractors and installers.
Please do not misunderstand me, James.
I do not question your veracity, commitment, loyalty, or devotion to our trade or our industry. I expect your passion for our trade and industry, is what still motivates you to continue to work on behalf of the tradesman, in the industry.

What I do question, is the monster under the bed.

There seems to me to be a generalized fear within the contractors of our trade, of reduced thickness porcelain tiles.
The monster can be in the form of coverage, shipping and receiving, missing the mark when measuring and cutting, not breaking cleanly when scoring and snapping, structural integrity of the product itself, etc., etc.

I absolutely feel there is the need for concern, as these materials demand new protocol when compared to our typical porcelain operations. I feel just as strongly that Crossville, Inc., IMTEF, IUBAC, CTEF, TCNA, NTCA and many others, are devoted to developing the proper protocol and from what I have seen, are doing so effectively.

Like yourself James, I always felt one call back is too many. One call back could cost me multiple jobs. This is why awareness and preparedness is so important. Our concerns can be overcome through education and proper execution.
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Unread 11-17-2014, 08:34 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
If your going to install a 108" 3.5 mm tile you better think about both shrinkage and cure.
I could not agree with you more, Dave.

Just because you can walk on it, DOES NOT mean, you can install over it!!!

We are led to believe this is the case. It is widely perceived that once a product has hardened, curing has occurred and installation can commence.

Just because the bag says you can lay tile on it in a few hours, DOES NOT mean the curing process is completed, and there will be no further shrinkage. Any degree of shinkage is a detriment, especially in regards to reduced thickness porcelains and epoxy agglomerates.

More failures will absolutely occur until this issue is properly addressed.
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Unread 11-17-2014, 08:44 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James
If you would like to get some more answers, we have a Technical Committee meeting in Vegas before Surfaces. This is my invitation to you Ernie and others on this forum to attend the meeting on Monday the 19th of January.
I have already committed to demonstrations and installations using MLTSystem across North and South Dakota, for the 2nd and 3rd week of January.

This is one good reason why this thread is a beautiful thing.
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