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Unread 02-16-2020, 12:32 PM   #46
Tiger Mountain Tile Inc
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Next time you're at Home Depot take one of the 4x12 tiles over to the profile section and see which one works. HD carries Custom's profiles but you'll still be able to see what thickness works.
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Unread 02-17-2020, 01:57 PM   #47
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That's a good idea, Tile Mountain. I'll do that. Thanks.

I'm wondering if I can get some direction on choosing a linear drain. As mentioned earlier, I bought this made-in-China Neodrain, which is stainless and seems to have decent reviews on Amazon. But I'm starting to get cold feet after reading some reports of low quality stainless rusting in short order. I really have no way of gauging the quality of this stainless, beyond reading the Amazon reviews.

I asked my GC for a recommendation and he basically threw up his hands and said, "that's plumbing stuff...talk to your plumber." I asked the plumbing sub and he said they don't install linear drains frequently and that I should ask the tile setter for a recommendation. I asked the tile setter and he said he installs whatever is supplied to him.

I called and spoke with Infinity Drain and I was a little shocked that their unit was north of $1K. I'll spend the money if I have to but I don't want to throw money away, either. The Neodrain unit I bought was $110.

I just don't want to have problems down the road. I'm trying to be proactive but I have no personal experience with this and all of the trades on the job are giving me the deer-in-the headlights look.

I need a 48", tile insert quality, linear drain. Maybe I already have one in the Neodrain, but I really don't know.

Any guidance is appreciated.
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Unread 02-17-2020, 02:15 PM   #48
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Linear drain

https://noblecompany.com/storage/doc...escription.pdf

We also make the membranes.
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Unread 02-17-2020, 02:47 PM   #49
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I dunno, Brad, I feel like there's a reason all the big players charge significantly more for a linear drain of that length while Neodrain, well, doesn't.

Aside from the grade of the SS, it seems like those adjusting feet on springy angle brackets will be pretty flimsy. Probably not a long term issue IF no one ever steps on it.
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Unread 02-17-2020, 02:56 PM   #50
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Any recommendations based on experience, Dan?

I appreciate E3's suggestions and I'll look at the product, but his recommendation is seemingly biased since it appears he's affiliated with the company.
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Unread 02-17-2020, 03:12 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
Any recommendations based on experience, Dan?
Zero I'm afraid, I'm just a DIY'er who's never installed one.

While Eric is indeed affiliated with Noble he has been a contributor here for quite a long time, so I wouldn't chalk up his post as nothing more than a means to sell product. Just an alternative.
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Unread 02-17-2020, 10:57 PM   #52
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I've installed maybe five different brands of linear drains. Quickdrian, Aco, Noble, Infinity, and Schluter are the ones that I remember. In my opinion, the Noble drain is head and shoulders above the rest.

There are several reasons that I think this but two main reasons. 1. is that the liner actually clamps into the drain whereas the others typically have a piece of membrane that is attached to the drain, usually not real well, and then your waterproofing membrane glues to that.

But with Noble, you use your membrane and glue and clamp it directly to the drain. It's simply a better way of doing it.

The #2 reason is that the drain body is made out of a big chunk of ABS plastic. So your drain pipe will glue directly into the drain body. Other drains use those clamping sleeves and get a friction fit into the drain. Noble's is glued in just like any other plumbing connection.

So the membrane is clamped to the drain and the drain pipe is glued into the drain. That's a pretty good system. There are more reasons than just those but those two are the main reasons their drain is superior, IMO.

Here's a link to my instagram where I did a quick video a couple of years ago on the Noble Freestyle linear drain.

The other drains work fine though. The worst one was the Infinity drain but, to be fair, I think the one that I installed was a particularly crappy model and I'm not sure it reflects their other choices. But maybe it does.

The main thing is that it depends on what your tile installer wants to use. Is he using a bonded membrane shower system (like Kerdi) or a liner system like the drain in your amazon link?

The Noble drain is made to be used with bonded membranes but you can get an extension kit to use it with a liner system. But it adds pretty significantly to the cost of the already not-cheap drain.

I think Aco and quickdrain make versions of their drains that will work for either shower method.

So I would figure out what your tile installer is comfortable with and then go from there.
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Unread 02-18-2020, 07:15 AM   #53
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Thanks Jim. I had another conversation with the tile setter last night. He didn't know any brand names. He texted a few pictures of some beautiful installations he's done using linear drains but he didn't know which manufacturer any of them came from. He said he simply installs what he's been given by the plumber or GC or homeowner.

This is a single floor FL home built on a concrete slab. I asked for more clarity yesterday about how they will build the pan and waterproof. I was told they do the "double waterproofing" method, with a liner on the bottom and Redgard on top. This is similar to the method I saw while watching some of the Infinity installation videos.

I showed the Neodrain to the plumber and he was agnostic about it. "This looks fine." But I guess my real concern is how well the Chinese stainless will hold up over time.

I'll take a closer look at the Noble drain.

EDIT for a dumb question: Would you choose the PVC vs. ABS Noble drain based on whether your home has PVC or ABS plumbing?



Example of Double Waterproofing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0nEHEdbQDQ&t=
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Unread 02-18-2020, 08:09 AM   #54
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Wink

The Noble drain( PVC or ABS) is chosen by the plumbing in the house/code.
Fla. is PVC. I believe. The stainless is 316. Used with a Noble membrane you don't need the Redgaurd.I would suggest doing it with just a surfaces applied membrane with a single mortar bed sloping to drain.(sloped mortar, bonded membrane, tile)
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Unread 02-18-2020, 08:18 AM   #55
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A liner flat on the subflooring or slab and then a liquid applied membrane on the surface is a recipe for problems. A clamping drain needs the liner to be sloped to it, so flat on the floor is never a good idea as some moisture WILL get there. There's no good way to seal a topical applied liquid waterproofing to a clamping drain, so there's always a path for moisture to the mud bed. ANd, once it gets in there, it has very little area to eventually evaporate, so there's going to be a buildup.

The Tile Council of North America has numerous shower construction methods. Choose one of them, and things will work.

Double waterproofing isn't one of them. Doesn't mean it will leak, but that's only part of the problem.
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Unread 02-18-2020, 08:37 AM   #56
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Thanks. Yes, it's all PVC here (at least in my house).

With regard to the method of how they build/waterproof the pan, I really don't want to start dictating a method and/or products these trades people are unfamiliar with. That said, I obviously don't want to let them move forward with a flawed method.

I questioned that very concern; what would become of any water that made it's way between the two waterproofing layers? I was told that any water that makes it's way between the two layers would exit through the weep holes in the drain. I take it the Noble linear drain doesn't have weep holes?

But to be clear, the liner in this installation shouldn't be flat. It should end up having pitch to the drain. The reason being is that the original shower was was sunken. The shower is now being enlarged. So several feet of slab will have to be broken to continue pitch to the back wall of the shower (where the linear drain will be positioned) which is currently well below the slab level.

Again, I'm not saying I will let them move forward with a flawed system. I appreciate all of the continued input and I will raise these concerns with trades to make sure potential failure points are mitigated.

Thanks again for the comments!
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Unread 02-18-2020, 09:09 AM   #57
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Hopefully this picture will provide a little more clarity.

The green line shows the approximate size of the new shower. So all of that portion of the slab will have to be scored/broken to pitch to the back wall.

The red line shows the approximate depth the original shower was sunken below the rest of the slab.

EDIT: I just showed one of the GC's guys the Noble full mud motor bed installation video. He simply said, "we don't have to put the Regard on top if you don't want it." But again, he's never even heard of Noble or Chloraloy.

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Unread 02-18-2020, 10:02 AM   #58
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yep.. we're are kinda new..only been around since 1964 and were the Company that first introduced sheet membranes to both the Tile And Plumbing industry.
Doing it the way that is being suggested in a thin-set method (with a surface applied membrane) like Nobleseal TS is your best option. If you want to do it with a liner, then you would need the full mortar bed adaptor that has weeps and requires a lot more depth, since you need the pre slope then another mortar bed over the liner instead of direct bond.
If you want to save additional depth move the drain to the green line and have it slope down to it from the back wall.
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Unread 02-18-2020, 10:26 AM   #59
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Eric, I wasn't trying to imply that Noble is an "off brand" or not well known. I'm simply saying that my area of FL is not "high end" and trades people here don't typically use new methods or veer out of their lane. Heck, I mentioned Schluter Ditra to my GC the other day and he said, "you're confused, Schluter is the trim piece that goes on the edge of tile." I explained that Schluter is the parent company that makes Ditra, Kerdi, trim profiles, etc. He had no idea what Ditra or Kerdi were, because they never use them. In his mind, Schluter is tile edge trim.

I'm trying to get educated and from watching your full mortar bed video, it appears I already have plenty of depth for this method because the back of the "new" shower is already well below the slab grade, unless I'm misunderstanding the installation method?

NobelSeal TS might be the best option but these guys are completely unfamiliar with using waterproofing membranes and I'm not interested in being a guinea pig for their learning curve.

They are however familiar with the second method you describe; "If you want to do it with a liner, then you would need the full mortar bed adaptor that has weeps and requires a lot more depth, since you need the pre slope then another mortar bed over the liner instead of direct bond."

They told me the plumber will set the drain, the preslope mortar bed and the liner material. And the tile setter will then put additional mortar atop the liner to "fine tune" the slope, prior to setting the tile.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdSO9PIhgtw
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Unread 02-22-2020, 11:55 AM   #60
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Here's the latest dilemma (and I'm keeping in-mind Jadnashua's earlier comments about TCNA guidelines);


I returned the China made linear drain and had the plumber order the Quickdrain, made by Oatey.

I've done enough reading to know that the correct method to create the pan is to create the mud preslope, bonded to the slab with thinset, topping the preslope with a vinyl liner and finally a mud slope atop the vinyl, and thinset and tile.

My contractor is adamant that his plumbing subs always install the vinyl pan and the drain. But based on what I've read read here, and many videos I've watched, my perception is that it's pretty common for the tile setter to create the mud preslope and adhere the vinyl membrane (and possibly set the drain)?

The plumber has made it clear that he will install the vinyl pan and install the drain but will definitely not install the mud preslope. He said that's not his job. And although I haven't had a chance to have another conversation with the tile setter (he's also a sub), the GC is saying the tile setter will only do the final mud slope, not the preslope. Basically, no one in the mix is left to create the mud preslope, as ridiculous as that sounds.

When I questioned the GC about having the plumber adhere the vinyl pan directly to the slab, and my concern that this would be incorrect because there would be no slope toward the drain, the GC said that he has to break up most of the existing slab to enlarge the shower, so he'll just pour the new slab with slope for the vinyl pan to be adhered to, mitigating the need for a mud preslope.

My concern with that is that the slab slope will likely be on a single plane, and not be directed to the drain from all directions, as would be accomplished with a mud preslope. Thoughts on this?

I'm still debating what to do with regard to their normal practice of using a double waterproofing method. My concern with telling the GC to forgo the topical liquid membrane is that should there be any problems down the road, I don't want the GC to be able to say, "hey, we normally apply Regard on top, but you told us not to."

In other words, I don't want to set myself up for blame should there be a future problem because I told the GC to do something different from his normal methods, despite the fact that his normal methods don't seem to be in line with TCNA guidelines.

It appears the Quickdrain is compatible with topical liquid membranes. Now I'm wondering if I should tell the GC to have the plumber forgo the vinyl pan and just use the topical liquid membrane. But this leaves me with the same concern about dictating methods to the GC and future liability.
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