Talk me down (or into) a $24k shower rebuild

[ybakos]

Thanks @CX, if I recall, I reviewed the latest Schluter spec and it includes greenboard - I will double-check.

@makethatkerdistick Thank you, yes, I am fairly assertive but I also want to be open to their experience. I am leaning toward pushing on something besides greenboard. Indeed, the tiling work will be of pretty high quality, mitering, good grout, and warrantied work. I appreciate your point.

@jadnashua I would call this shower "lower midrange" in fanciness. Floor-to-ceiling tile at 9ft, but no fancy plumbing/fixtures.

@PhilWA, that is a great way of putting it... if I knew I could commit the time, this would be the key argument for me to DIY it (three times, too!)

In the end, I've decided to grit my teeth and go with the contractor - mostly due to my own time commitments and what I suspect will be some unexpected surprises.

I will certainly be applying everyone's advice here, thank you very much.

I will report back when the work begins and progresses, just for infotainment. Assuming I can still pay my Internet bill.

[ybakos]

My shower project has progressed with the help of a reputable local contractor. So far so good. Here are some interesting notes and some photos.

• overall a pretty solid shower, took some effort to demo
• schluter used on the walls, but a thicker red membrane on the curb / pan
• indeed, two layers of tile on the bottom (mentioned way earlier in this thread)
• water damage minimal - only around the curb area (!!!)
• receptor pan came out pretty clean, there was some kind of "foam" layer plus the mortar and liner/membrane

Notice anything that I should pay attention to? Or, are there some important things I should check, inspect or prepare before the new receptor gets installed? Some minor items on my list:

• Cleaning remaining / missed debris between the studs
• Filling and patching insulation holes and liner
• Replace bottom blocking between the studs that were smashed in a bit during the demo (?)

And some questions...

1. Should I care about the bottom blocking that got smashed in a little during the demo? I imagine that the flatter they are, the better the membrane will be attached?
2. Is it important to tile the bottom first, then the walls? Or does it not matter? (Walls will be large format tile, floor will be 3x6 tiles)
3. Does it seem like I can go curbless here?

Thanks for any advice. I'm just trying to be thorough to get the best result... I don't wanna pay for this twice.

[ybakos]

More photos...

[ybakos]

Last few photos...

[cx]

How do you intend to waterproof this new shower, Joe? Difficult to answer the questions without knowing that.

[ss3964spd]

Also, since you're on a slab, going truly curbless won't be possible without demo'g the shower slab.

[ybakos]

Thanks for the replies. Just had a visit from the tile man. Indeed, can't go curbless (without digging into the concrete, adding drama, etc). But, will go with a smaller curb than the big 8" one that was there previously.

Any drawbacks to a shorter curb? I know that local code prescribes a minimum.

As for waterproofing, this is not a DIY project so I'm in the hands of the contractor. But the plan is some framing work, drywall, shower pan, waterproofing. Walls to be Kerdi membrane and the pan to be two layers of the thick red vinyl stuff.

[cx]

Per plumbing code your finished curb must be a minimum of 2 inches above the top of your shower drain, but no more than 9 inches. According to ceramic tile industry standards, your finished curb must be a minimum of 2 inches above the shower floor. The first is law; the second is not. I would want the waterproofing portion of my curb to meet those height requirements, but that's not how it's written.

Originally Posted by Joe

But the plan is some framing work, drywall, shower pan, waterproofing. Walls to be Kerdi membrane and the pan to be two layers of the thick red vinyl stuff.

That's worrisome. You cannot use drywall as the backing material on your walls unless you're using a manufacturer's "system" that approves the use of gypsum drywall in such a wet area. To my knowledge there are only two such, one being Schluter's Kerdi System.

Since it appears you plan to build a traditional shower receptor, you cannot use gypsum drywall on the walls. And I have no idea why someone would use two layers of an approved membrane such as your "thick red vinyl stuff." If that's an approved PVC or CPE membrane, it has specific installation instructions. Can you get us a link to that material?

I trust this is not the same contractor who used the "thick red vinyl stuff" on your previous receptor?

My opinion; worth price charged.

[makethatkerdistick]

For that price, I would expect a contractor to stick to ONE approved system, installed according to industry standards. Personally, I would prefer the Kerdi system, and for that price I would indeed expect a nice Schluter linear drain installed. They are great quality 316 stainless steel, and the magic lies in how they tie into the rest of the Kerdi system. You won’t get that with a mix and match system.

CX, I wonder whether Joe is referring to two coats of Redgard? If so, having a liquid waterproofing membrane installed on the floor offers exactly zero advantage over just continuing the Kerdi membrane there.

[ybakos]

I perhaps misheard or misinterpreted some of the things from the tile installer. No double-membrane or deviations from the general advice here, other than not a complete Schluter "system" installation. They seem to have done a pretty good job on the waterproofing, despite not going 100% Schluter down to the drain. Did a 72-hour flood test.

Anyway, below are some shots of the finished tile (not quite cleaned up yet).

Can ya'll offer me some advice or possible solutions to resolve things I'm not happy with?

1. Walls. Grout is not even/flush with the surface of the tile in some places, exposing the dark edge of the tile. Why wasn't this done right when it is so visible/obvious? What's the best way to fix it?
2. Floor layout is ~4" squares pseudo-centered around the drain. I was told there wouldn't be small segments near the walls, which I gently debated after measuring and sketching myself.
3. The edges and surface of the tiles is "wavy gravy." Especially near the longest wall, it is absolutely not straight - hard to tell from my photos. And the angles of some tiles kinda go "up" where they should slope down toward the drain more. Grout was used to compensate.
4. Grout mess on the tiles that wasn't wiped. Why on earth?

The PM and tile boss are coming out to see what can be done.

Tell me, is it possible / pragmatic to rip out the floor tiles and do it again? Won't this compromise the integrity of the thinset, mortar bed and overall shower?

Is it better to "live with it" and ask for a partial refund on the work? What usually happens in situations like this, where the client doesn't like the tile job for justified reasons?

Yes, I should have done it all myself had I known the finish quality would be this poor.

Thanks for any insights.

[Davy]

Hi Joe. Large tiles are usually warped a little so it's nearly impossible to get perfectly flat walls. I can't see just how much lippage you have.

The grout won't be perfectly flat either from the edge of one tile to the next. But it shouldn't be so low that too much tile edge shows.

The floor can be removed but if you did use Kerdi, it would likely be damaged.

Leaving the raw edges of the tiles exposed would be my main complaint. Sometimes bullnose tiles are available or they do make profile edges (Schluter for example) that would have looked much better.

These things should have been decided before hand. I don't expect the homeowner to know what questions to ask so I ask them before starting. Apparently they didn't ask many questions.

[cx]

Originally Posted by Joe

They seem to have done a pretty good job on the waterproofing, despite not going 100% Schluter down to the drain. Did a 72-hour flood test.

I'm still confused about just how the shower, especially the receptor portion was waterproofed, Joe. What material? How was it installed? Makes a very large difference if the floor tiles are to be re-done.

Is re-doing the floor tiles what your new thread is about?

And I certainly agree with Davy about the exposed, untrimmed tile edges. I would never consider doing that unless the customer had specifically requested it.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[ybakos]

Thanks for asking. I'm sorry I'm not as informed about this stuff as I should be!

If I recall, the way the build went was...

1. Initial "floating" of graded mortar on top of concrete slab floor.
2. Application of thick vinyl liner, about 12 inches above the floor, where it met the backer board, and also covered the curb.
3. Wire mesh and mud (hard when dry, like cement) over the bottom 12" of the perimeter, plus all over the curb.
4. Schluter membrane from on high down to the floor, and the curb.
5. Floated mortar pan on top of the thick vinyl on the floor.
6. Thinset and tile on top of that.

So basically, the bottom 12 - 18" of the shower has the thick vinyl stuff, covered in some kind of hard mud, covered by kerdi membrane.

The pan itself is foundation - mortar - liner - mortar - thinset - tile.

I may be a little inaccurate here.

[cx]

Rather unusual combination, Joe, but no reason it shouldn't work. And your floor tiles could be removed and replaced if necessary, by carefully removing that entire top mortar bed and replacing it. If it was done correctly, it should be at least 1 1/2 inches thick.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[Tiger Mountain Tile Inc]

Maybe the photos don't show it but it doesn't look too bad to me.

I understand what Davy is saying about exposed edges but that wasn't one of your complaints.

The shower pan tile they centered on the drain. To expect the edges to be full I think is an unreasonable expectation. They could have centered the tile in the space but then who knows what it would have looked like at the drain? But they could have presented you with an either/or option?

It doesn't look bad to me. Neither does the prep work.