Bathroom Remodel - Drain Questions

[sclark]

Hello everyone!

I've been lurking around here for a few weeks and have gotten lots of great information so thank you!

We are remodeling our "guest" full bath. It was originally off our kitchen which we thought was a strange place for a bathroom so we decided to move the door to be off the den / family room right next to it. Only had to move the baseboard water heating which was pretty easy. The bathroom originally had a tub and we decided to replace it with a stand up tiled shower (we have a tub in the other bathroom. The room is a typical small bathroom 5' x 7'. When we did the tear out we noticed lots of water damage, mold and termite damage to the studs behind it. We had our Pest control service come check out the house and there are no signs of active termites (huge sigh of relief).

Our plans are again to replace the tub with a stand up shower, new toilet, new vanity, heated tile floors. We are planning on using a Kerdi shower kit. We decided to move the Shower head and controls to the opposite wall so it would be by the glass doors we'll have installed. We didn't want sliding doors, so we'll have a stationary glass on the toilet side of the wall with the shower head on the opposite side.

So we've gotten the tearout done, replaced several studs with new pressure treated studs. One of the things we found in the tearout is this strange "pit" where the drain was. It was strange as the drain was a single pipe that connected the overflow, and tub drain to the drain in the floor. It also appears that they've done something strange with the drain and I can't really tell what it is / how to fix it. It almost appears as if they just stuck a pipe down the drain and puttied over it!

I really think I have to replace / fix this, but not sure how to proceed. The vent is nearby and is a cast iron vent, the toilet flange is cast iron, so I am assuming this drain is cast iron as well. The drain is currently on the the opposite wall of where we have moved the faucet and shower head.

Can we leave the drain in it's current location and get a Kerdi offset shower pan and just put the drain on the opposite wall? This seems strange to me. We are also considering putting in a linear drain along that wall so it doesn't look like there is one. If we went the linear way, is there a different kerdi pan we can use or do we just have to make our own mortar bed?

I realized this is a lot of text, so I'll leave it here for now.

p.s. I tried to add pictures, but I can't seem to get them shrunk enough and still be visible and the forum does not let me post a link.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Houston Remodeler]

Sean,

Welcome to the forum.

Using PT lumber sounds great on paper but isn't a good idea. PT lumber is soaking wet when you buy and install it. Over time it dries out, cracks, warps, twists and deforms. All are bad for tiling over. If you used KDPT then you are good to go.

Take some pics of your problem area. Use the paper clip icon at the top of the grey reply box.

If you want to move the drain or use a linear drain (way cool) you'll be making your own pan, which is preferred anyway.

[Carbidetooth]

Without a picture, I'm gonna take a stab at what you're seeing on that drain. It sounds like the bell (hub) end of a cast iron waste line. There was a time that the connections between cast iron pipe were made by packing oakum into the joint followed by poured lead. Later they replaced the lead with some sort of caulk, I think.

Could be that someone used a similar method where drain and overflow enter iron pipe?

I'd probably cut the cast iron back to a convenient spot, (rent a pipe breaker)use a no-hub Fernco coupling and either PVC or ABS pipe to complete shower drain. Old cast iron is no fun

[sclark]

Honestly I don't know if it's Kiln Dried or not, it doesn't / didn't "feel" wet at all when we were putting it up. Just asked the guys at Lowe's which would be best studs for an internal bathroom remodel.

Anyway, I had to shrink these way down to be under 50k, hopefully they're not too small.

One pic is the the drain during the tear out.. the other is what is looks like right now.

[Houston Remodeler]

Sean,

What you have under your tub is pretty normal. The riser pipe still attached is leaded into the cast iron (CI) pipe before the trap. You'll be digging to unearth the old trap to remove it and replace it with a shiny new PVC trap which will fit into your new drain much easier.

After you've done some digging, take a new pic or 3

Oh, and stop listening to the folks at the big box stores unless you start your questions with "Where can I find the...."

[sclark]

Thanks Paul!

So I've never tackled creating a shower pan before (oviously) which is why I was going to go with the kerdi pan. My wife and I do like the idea of a linear drain, so we are going to go down that path.

Once I have the drain changed, I'm assuming I need to fill in that area with cement to provide a solid base for the shower. Our floor is concrete as it stands right now.

So steps would be something along the lines of:
1) Put up blocking around the bottom 6" between all the studs (assuming 2x6). Additional blocking for door supports + Handheld Glide.
2) Shower Curb - 2 2x4's on Side
3) Put up Drywall / Greenboard on shower walls + curb. Tape and mud the seams.
4) Felt paper the bottom of the shower bed and curb. Lay some lathe, use deck mud to create the slopped pan towards the rear linear drain. Use a 1/4" per foot slope.
5) Install Kerdi Membrane on floor + corners, then up wall.
6) Begin tiling!

[sclark]

Thanks for the info!

Started digging out the "pit". How far down before I should find a turn or p trap? I've probably gotten rid of 2 ft of dirt and still haven't found a turn. Shoved my shovel down each side of the pipe, down to the handle and didn't feel an obstruction.

Is it possible it doesn't have a ptrap or do I just need to keep digging?

[Houston Remodeler]

Keep digging. At 3 feet let us know what you find. If you come across some shiny, black, very light stones, or gooy black liquid, skip the shower.

[sclark]

Oh Boy this digging down is pretty tough, it's mostly clay down there. Am I doing this the hard way just using a hand shovel? I tried a regular shovel but couldn't really get much dirt out with it because of the odd angles.

So I believe I found the ptrap. I tried to highlight it in the red curvy line. The top line that I drew I believe is the main waste line which is right under the wall.

In fact the ptrap connection appears to be under the left hand wall. So I need to continue excavating around to get as much dirt out as I can to make room for new PVC ptrap. How much room does a pipe breaker need in order to break the pipe? Assuming I'd need to break it around the blue line, which looks / feels like a coupling area.

The mud / clay looks very rusty. I'm assuming this is just from the moisture up next to the pipe.

[Houston Remodeler]

A bit more digging. You need to get a little below the old trap and past the connection to the CI to have room to work.

If you have one of these augers it will help break the dirt.

We know this isn't easy. If it were, none of us would have jobs.

[sclark]

I found the bottom.. Phew!!

So i'm not sure where to snap this thing off at. The green line is the main line and the orange line feels like the back of the "hub" (if that's the right word). There's also a large rock / something underneath it (i'm assuming for support?)

I've got most of the dirt out from underneath the p-trap but it doesn't show very well in these small pics.

I'm not sure I could snap it off around the orange line because it's probably less than an inch away from the main. So the wife was wondering if we could just snap it above the ptrap (around the blue line) and put new drain in from there?

the riser part is also not straight, assuming it was because they were trying to meet up with the bathtub drain or something.

[Houston Remodeler]

Sean,

Optimally you want to remove the old trap at the hub, marked 'hub' in the pic below. The separation occurs at the yellow line. It is probably leaded in, but with a heck of a lot of wiggling, or a few minutes with an acetylene torch, it will come out. You can use a rubber 'donut' to slide the new 2" plastic pipe into the old 2" CI hub.


If you cannot disconnect it there, try for the pink line . Lastly at the blue line if that allows you enough room to work

[sclark]

welllll... I got the drain off.. Although not where I had intended.

I couldn't get enough room to work where the hub was, so I was working on the lead seal at the Pink line. Using a Screwdriver / Hammer plus wiggling as I don't have a torch.

So I was wiggling it a bit in a kind of a circular motion when it started to move around. Then I realized it had snapped.

I'm surprised this thing drained at all with all the crap in the trap.

So Now, I should have some room to work on the hub as I can get a bit more dirt out. Should I still try to take the lead out of the hub connection?

[cx]

Welcome, Sean.

Yes.

If you've no torch available (doesn't always work well with even an oxy/acetylene torch, but I'd try that first), I recommend making enough room so you can drill lots of holes into the lead seal around the pipe and then use whatever other tool is required to remove enough lead to get that pipe outa there without damaging the remaining pipe.

I find that sharp, narrow (1/4") wood chisels can be helpful (don't use your dad's good one, though ).

The remaining pipe is not likely in substantially better condition, so you really wanna be careful if you don't wanna be chippin' a substantial amount of concrete lookin' for a solid place to connect.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[sclark]

Gonna head to lowe's to pick up a torch and give that a try. I've been drilling and scraping for the last few hours and haven't gotten it to budge at all.

The Awkward position of trying to get down in the hole doesn't help as the drain is so far down i'm past my elbows reach down to do anything, so practically have to lay on the floor.

While I'm there, gonna pick up the new 2" PVC Drain and a Doughnut to connect the two. Hoping to have this done tonight.