Shower Pan with Hydro Ban

[JandM]

I am considering installing a shower pan using the Hydro Ban Product, but the Installation video on the Laticrete website is quite different than the standard mud base install. The install Detail 2 on the hydro Ban product guide seems to show placement of a 9235 membrane through the motar bed around the drain down to the weep holes (creating a circular joint in the bed a few inches away from the drain). Based on the install video (on the Laticrete website), it seem as if they just install a sloped motar bed and place the Hydro Ban Membrane on the bed and finish tile on the membrane. Anyone have experience with this method or did I not see something correctly?? Any help is appreciated..

[Jason_Butler]

Hydroban, Redgard and a number of other waterproofing products claim this is possible. I've used Redgard extensively but never been brave enough to use it in lieu of a conventional CPE/PVC liner.

As with any pan, the weakest link is at the drain. Kerdi has addressed this via there proprietary drain. For the Hydroban pan to work, it is essential that the liquid bond to the drain and the weep holes must remain open.

In my neck of the woods, a similar concept is done with fiberglass and resin. Most get a good bond to the drain but clog the weep holes.

I can see the Hydroban concept working but not ready to try it on a customer's home yet

Jason

[gueuzeman]

For the 24 years I've been in the business, I've only used liquids, and I would never consider changing. The laticrete link I just checked shows a Shluter kerdi drain being used, which I would recommend, they are great. 75% of the showers I do use them, but the liquid membrane works fine with a conventional drain as well. Attention to detail is the key to sucess, and as stated, dont block the weep holes, I usually take off the clamp ring, waterproof, and then install it before the last coat. Don't block the weep holes, as said before.

Hydroban is great stuff, though I use Mapei's mapelastic HPG myself. I like using the fabric. A security blanket.

I expect the kerdi kommandos to decend and attack us liquid types, and while I like their, drains, ditra, and edge strip, no product is right for EVERY situation.

gueuze

[JandM]

Gueuzeman - when using the liquid membrane, how do you address the floor to wall interface of the pan? As I see it, the liquid membrane will be on the sloped pan and then need to be spread up the wall (on the wood blocking). Hydro Ban allows the use of a membrane set into the liquid and I would think this would be better for attachement to the wood blocking. Their video shows placing the liquid membrane on the floor (not what appears to be a sloped pan) and then right up the wall. They then show performing a leak test on the assembly. I think I would prefer to make a sloped "pan" from the liquid membrane, Install the mud base, then apply the durock to the walls with a final coat of Hydro Ban on the walls to provide for moisture protection and to seal all the niches and benches? Does this sound right or does someone have a better/simpler method?

[gueuzeman]

J&M- Install Cement board. Then pre-slope pan with a cement based compound (me, mapei tri-patch, with V-notched modified mortar to bond to wood substrate). Waterproofing cannot be "built up" to slope, it is a thin, "load bearing" membrane.

Actually start at your seat and work your way down and out the door. Second and third coat give durability and insurance.

Allow to dry 24 hours, then mud floor in conventional manner. If you can, after mud has had 2 days to dry apply a coat to the mud to add a layer of protection to the mud bed. As others will tell you, the Kerdi system will do thi8s in one step and be ready for tile immediately. True. But multiple layers of kerdi fabridc embedded with th8inset build up to very thick corners, one of the reasons I stick with liquids. And I'm not in that big a hurry.

[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]


world's greatest fabrication jig-
[IMG][/IMG]


[IMG][/IMG]


anything else? Ummm, yes, that wa sa kerdi drain, they rock!

-----------

gueuze

[ceramictec]

besides using the Kerdi drain you can also use the Noble - Flex with a clamping drain if you want.

[duneslider]

gueuze,

Couple questions on your method. I presume you have a water barrier behind your cement board on the walls. What happens to the water that makes it to the water barrier? It doesn't look like you use the liquid waterproofer on the entire wall area. Since you are using the kerdi drain you don't have any weep holes that are collecting the water that the water barrier behind the board is catching.

That shower looks great by the way.

[gueuzeman]

Good question, DS. I have no answer, but I'm wondering where all this water you think is behind the wall is coming from? I'm seeing that these cement boards (durock amd permabase ) nearly repel water. Around here, I'm much more worried about all the guys using glue inside showers. How do you wrap choraloy behind a seat? I guess as a courtesy I could give the walls a once-over with the HPG for a pretty small extra fee, but it would be as more of a mold block than a waterproofing.

Fire away- gueuze

[ceramictec]

I would paint the whole wall up to the shower head.

[John Bridge]

Hi Mike, Welcome aboard.

I'll start by stating that I am a Kerdi man, and I'm committed to it. That doesn't mean I'm close-minded about other methods, though.

1. I like Gruese's method using the Kerdi-drain only if he continues up the wall with the waterproofing. It would have to go up about five feet before I would buy it. (Nice clean work, by the way).

2. I have never liked the "big divot" method invented by Laticrete and espoused by a couple other companies that has you using two layers of waterproofing in the drain area. Seems a big waste of time and effort to me when the Kerdi-drain is available and makes a more positive connection to the waterproofing. I also don't like the idea of having a mud sandwich between two layers of waterproofing. If water ever does make its way in there it'll never evaporate back out.

My recommendation is that if you're going to use a standard clamping drain, use a conventional shower pan of either PVC or CPE.

Finally, I invite all pros into the Hangout to discuss the merits and drawbacks to any method out there.

[JandM]

Thanks for all the insight. It seems that the Kerdi-drain will provide for the cleanest/easiest install method. I plan on using the Kerdi Drain with the Hydro Ban product and will coat all surfaces in the shower enclosure. I am also planning on using their fabric in the corners just for extra reinforcing (although the manufacturer states it is not required with less than 1/8" gap)

Mike