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Old 08-18-2018, 05:13 PM   #31
jadnashua
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One of the bigger problems with multiple shower heads is not using a valve and supply piping that is adequately sized. For a head to perform as designed, it needs at least the volume and pressure stated. So, say you have 4 body sprays at 1gpm and a standard shower head at 2.5gpm, you'd need a valve that can supply at least 6.5gpm and more for a bit of margin, is desirable. Note, a typical 1/2" shower valve often has trouble supplying anything over 5gpm, although some can do more (a thermostatically controlled valve tends to have better flow than a simple pressure balanced one). FWIW, the copper institute's recommendations is to never exceed a flow velocity of 5fps on hot water, and with a 1/2" copper pipe, that equates to about 4gpm...a 3/4" line equates to 8gpm at that same velocity. CPVC and PEX use their own numbers, but also note their ID is smaller than the equivalent copper tubing. The faster the flow, the more pressure drop there is from the friction induced, which also decreases the available volume.

The other big thing is the size of the WH. A human car wash will require a HUGE water heater, or possibly a smaller one run at high temperatures with a tempering valve for safety. Some then gravitate to a tankless, on-demand system, but unless your ground water temperature is tepid all year long, expect big problems in the winter with high volume demands as the limited heat available just can't raise the temperature of the water high enough for all of the gallons of water one of those showers can demand. What might work fine in the summer with 70-degree incoming water could be a total disaster/disappointment in the winter if it's now closer to freezing coming in (like it is at my house during a cold spell).
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Old 08-19-2018, 07:21 AM   #32
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Ok CX, if you dont see any major objections to my ramp or knee wall or things I will proceed.

I can see the drip issue being an issue for longer steam room usage rather than the 20 min sessions i envision, I also see the tile size and grout grooves being a big factor. it seems logical that drops are not going to run across a grout line to the next tile. I have read from 1/2" slope per foot to 2" for commercial spas.
one idea I had was to slope the ceiling 2" towards the front so 1/2" per foot.
So one valid question is how big of tiles can I easily put on the ceiling?

What is the current thought on balance loops for body spray heads? it seems to me a tee is adequate.
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Old 08-19-2018, 07:53 AM   #33
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Careful there, Teddy. Just because a particular member doesn't post some objection to something he thinks you might be gonna do does not mean there are no problems or objections. It could just as well mean, as in this case, that member doesn't know anything at all about your "ramp and knee wall and things" or simply didn't post anything about any such observations.

And one particular member might miss something that other members might see as problematic. Not a good idea to base any decisions on the lack of comment from any particular individual who may or may not even have seen your question or implied question.

Best thing you can do here is ask specific questions about your project and wait for responses from members who are most knowledgeable about the subject. Kinda like your balance loop question - I ain't the right guy.
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Old 08-19-2018, 03:16 PM   #34
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The biggest issue with multiple shower heads is inadequate supply. A small factor is just gravity, as simply, the pressure will drop 0.43#/foot the higher you go up. If your valve and supply line is adequately sized, balancing doesn't do much of anything. A 1/2" supply line and valve usually doesn't work well with multiple heads...at least, it often won't achieve maximum performance, but might be good enough for you. Think of the end of an open hose and how far the stream goes...now, put your thumb over it. The pressure is identical, but the spray goes further (Bernoulli principle). But, try to run multiple sprinklers or heads on an inadequate supply, and there's not enough water to create that back pressure, and the spray doesn't speed up. That's a combination of increased friction and larger openings for the water to exit. One reason a rain head has water nearly dribble out of it is that the inlet pipe opening area is small compared to the combined outlet area of the sprays nozzles...taken to a higher level...same issue with multiple showerheads/body sprays...too many openings, things slow down.

Another, functional issue, is that you can exhaust your WH quite fast when using lots of sprays...make sure you factor that into your budget, especially if there will be serial users, or simultaneous ones of the hot water supply.
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Old 08-20-2018, 07:21 AM   #35
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Thanks Jim, I missed you post about water flow rate.
I was just going to post that i may rethink the curbless ramp knee wall idea due to worries about the drain only having 2" of slope before it runs into the room .
my valve may be of similar design of this one...https://cdn.cloud.grohe.com/tpi/2000...700.1534772233

The specs say about 4 GPM top and bottom at 45 psi. I am sure i am closer to 80 PSI.
I read where this valve 35015000 says no shut off valves after this temp mixer valve... hmmm. and it says 1/2 PEX is not goo in 4 way configuration due to "pressure stacking"? but 3/4" pex is ok. I can see now i need to know my valve type. I assumed this valve controlled flowrate and temp which is probably wrong. and i assumed i can put flow control valves after this valve.
I am pretty sure these flow control valves i got from this demo were being used. But I did Demo two showers so maybe jsut one valve was placed before this temp control valve and they it was on side jets and top head. I have not been able to identify my valve yet. IT is at least 10 year old valve that has temp control. it has 1/2" pipe threads, it does have temp mixer cartridge 47.050 inside but i cant seem to find a similar looking valve. i maybe can figure out how to put this valve back together and do a flow test. I am not sure how it was plumbed before. I am not sure if i need to put a low control valve after this mixer valve or if it can control the flow. I assumed it did both but now i must verify. I had a plumber disassemble it for me when I was salvaging a day spa. This shower is being installed in a 2 bedroom accessory basement apartment. IT is close to a 50 gal fast recover gas water heater with high pressure. However i could imagine running out of hot water. There is room for an additional water heater if required. I always wondered how tankless would do when our tap water is well below 40f
The side heads are moen 2.5 GPM
The top rain heads are moen 2.5 GPM. shower bar is 2.5 GPM
so total is 15 GPM if I put two top heads and 4 side jets. or 12,5 if shower bar and 4 side jets I guess i could easily reduce this to one top head and 2 side jets. or 7.5 GPM

In My haste i ordered a shower bar and diverter valve assuming i can use this on the top outlet of my valve... I guess this wouldn't be considered a flow control valve but i was thinking about having a flow control valve on each outlet to control if the side jets were on or not and the flowrate of the shower heads, Either top head or shower bar, as selected from the diverter valve.
Thanks so much Jim for giving me pause.
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Old 08-20-2018, 09:03 AM   #36
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well I just talked to US Grohe.... Sent a picture and she says I have a 34122000 valve, 730$ but now discontinued. It is just a temp control not flow control. so i need a flow control valve after this before my diverter to the shower bar and before my side heads.
She was not the most experienced because it took me some time to tell her i diverter valve will control shower bar and top head better than a volume control going to each one.
She said inlet max is 72psi.... who ever limits the pressure if its 80PSI? I better go check this.

trouble is there is no flowrates on this spec sheet
file:///C:/Users/Laptop/Desktop/GROHE_Specification_Sheet_34122000%20(1).pdf

did find this
https://www.guillens.com/GRO/34122.htm

my post on a plumbing forum
https://www.plumbingforums.com/threa...o-valve.13580/

it says this. "emperature control only

GROHE TurboStat® Technology

Separate volume control required

Requires Twin Ell for shower/tub

combinations with diverter tub spout"

twin ell for shower/tub??? what does this mean. i know what a twin ELL is has two ports i guess they mean you use the tub spout diverter, but also i think my diverter valve will do the same thing.

i found this.
http://www.kasales.net/documents/Ins...ng%20Grohe.pdf

I do read that the flowrate maybe 12GPM @60PSI of which i am quite sure I have if not 80.
I di read that you should not use both the top and bottom outlet port... which is different than where i read a flowrate of like 4 on top and 3.6
on bottom.

I will try to find a nice plumbing forum to post the plumbing issues
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:53 AM   #37
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i guess i ask to many questions in an obtuse manner.

How large of tile can i put on a ceiling? im not a pro setter.. far from that.
Do you think the ramp looks ok?
Do you think i should build that left wall out to limit the glass door size and cost plus better insulates for the steam room? Does it look good? I could keep it flush with toilet wall.
Any comments on a ceiling that slopes to the center from front and back? or it seems if it sloped to the back and drips run down the wall they wouldn't both me?
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:08 AM   #38
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1. Any size you want. Tile will have the same bonding mortar coverage on the back per square inch regardless the tile size. Just be sure you get 100 percent coverage on each tile. Some folks have indicated they've gone to substantial lengths to brace the ceiling tiles in place while the bonding mortar sets. I've never done that, but I've never installed anything larger than 13"x13" tiles on a ceiling. Shouldn't be any different with larger tiles, though, so long as you can get the mortar coverage.

2. I dunno.

3. See #2. Aesthetic consideration.

4. All I can tell you is the ceramic tile industry requires of a slope of 2" per horizontal foot, Teddy.

Some folks on here have indicated they have done no ceiling slope at all and been happy with their steam shower. You can do whatever you think will work for you.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:44 AM   #39
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i just picture tiles falling on my head.. I have read 1/2" per foot slope for residential steam showers and 2" for commercial. I'm thinking about 1" slope using 12 x 12 or larger size with tight grout lines. with a 2" lower line in middle. We do have hard water so water spots are an issue. I usually squeegee off the glass or pay for it in a couple months.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:48 AM   #40
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I've not heard of that 1/2" requirement. Where did you find that, please?
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Old 08-21-2018, 02:38 PM   #41
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FWIW, while spray from your shower (and not much typically gets to the ceiling) would have minerals in it, steam does not; they get left in the bottom of the steam generator or flushed down the drain. Water droplets from steam are essentially distilled water. A water fog from a shower head does contain minerals, but real steam from a steam generator does not. Steam is invisible...you can only see the water when it condenses, but that doesn't 'add' minerals back into it.
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Old 08-21-2018, 03:25 PM   #42
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Jad,, you are totally correct steam should be mineral free or close. ..
CX the 1/2" was taken from a spa company that sells steam showers but I cant find the site just now. generators and parts. I asked my building inspector but he wasn't worried about it. I will talk to him again today or tomorrow

https://www.steamsaunabath.com/desig...-and-slope.htm

says 1-2" pr foot but had a tech do a test using flat ceiling having drops of coolish water drip on my body is a third world issue I can live with.

https://forums.jlconline.com/forums/...-ceiling-slope
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Old 10-26-2018, 09:23 AM   #43
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okay I'm finishing up many things in this basement remodel and it is time to start tackling this bathroom floor and shower. Today I'm trying to address the unlevel floor. It has a high spot by the red coffee can near the shower vent line. It drops over an inch to the toilet flange. The toilet flange is out of level 1/4" across it. I have used my laser level to draw topo lines. Yellow was only color of chalk I had.
Notes.
I will be using a linear drain. I will do my own mud need but have a kerdi ramp for outside.
Room will have ditra heat in floor area . Mostly by cabinets and washer and dryer.

I may use 12x24" porcelain tile. I don't care what the transition height is going to 5/16 waterproof Vinyl at the doors.
Shower wall will be built 5" into next room do it will be 48" x 60". Room total is near 12x12'.

Please advise on my first steps to level this.
I'm dreading chipping out toilet flange. But it needs to be up 1 1/8" plus the ditra and tile so close to 2" and more level would be nice.
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Old 10-26-2018, 09:55 AM   #44
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how come my images wont open and show larger? did i resize them to small? they are under 50k
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Old 11-05-2018, 06:42 AM   #45
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Well I have even more respect for plumbers. After calculating the elevation of the toilet flange based on a curbless, linear drain height that I had, kerdi ramp, 3/8" slope/ft, and the highest point in the room. Not easy even with a laser level. This room floor is off by 1".
Then plumbing in the linear drain accurately is not easy. My linear drain has very little leway end to end. I ordered the 150cm and I am using the better bench so my inside dimensions will be 62" Max for better bench, this means I have less than 1/2" on each end. So I need to get this drain within 1/4". Not so easy. I can't imagine many plumbers doing it so accurately. Maybe I should have ordered the 140 cm drain?
Can I cheat on the better bench max and go 62.5-63"? I have a middle support. The way the kerdi is bonded to the drain pan makes it a bit hard to measure it's length, I think the book say 61 1/8" long to outside of 1" flange so I will not have very thick end tile strips ( 1 1/4"). So I
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