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Unread 11-23-2015, 05:39 PM   #1
Lump
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Exterior project failing.

I have an exterior project we did earlier this year and now its failing.

This area has only one side open to the elements with roof. (entrance into truck dealership) Will post pictures of project.

Three sides are butting to nothing the forth side butts to door threshold.

Here is the sandwich of materials:

Top: 13x13 exterior porcelain installed on diagonal approx. 11'x24' area
Thinset Durabond Fast set. (directional troweled and back burned)
Greenskin
Greenskin primer
Mapei Ultraplan extreme approx. 3/8" deep
NuHeat cables
Mapei Primer T
Concrete slab (previously had 15 year old tile bonded direct to slab which was not failing)


Appears that the project is failing where greenskin meets the greenskin primer or the greenskin is delaminating. (Most of project is hollow or pulling up. Note that this all happened prior to the temperature getting below freezing here.

There is not much of a slope on the slab nor tile work.

No moisture tests were not completed but is not required from Greenskin.

Any thoughts on what we may have missed when installing this project? Unfortunately our name is on it.
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Unread 11-23-2015, 05:42 PM   #2
Lazarus
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While Greenskin works really well in interior projects, I would have concern with it outdoors where there are radical temperature changes......
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Unread 11-23-2015, 05:58 PM   #3
dhagin
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Well it happens to the best of us, and being here trying to get to the bottom of it says a lot - good onya. Without having used GS or knowing more, this is what caught my eye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
There is not much of a slope on the slab nor tile work.

No moisture tests were not completed...
We all know moisture can be the enemy. How long after SLC was the heat fired up?
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Unread 11-23-2015, 06:26 PM   #4
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I believe they have a moisture vapor limit. None of the other manufacturers require it either, but, they almost all have limits.
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Unread 11-23-2015, 07:48 PM   #5
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I've seen GS delaminate under higher temps, like in the back of my truck with the black spray on liner.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.
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Unread 11-24-2015, 08:43 AM   #6
Sprung831
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There was also a bad run of Greenskin earlier this year. Somehow a waxy film of some sort found its way between the foil and the fabric and was causing it to delaminate.
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Unread 11-24-2015, 11:57 AM   #7
dhagin
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Curious if the manufacturer is helping you sort this out Brad? We all know how important it is when using these products that we're not alone in these sorts of things.
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Unread 11-24-2015, 12:48 PM   #8
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In addition to the possibility of delamination, it could be a problem at the primer/underlayment interface from a primer failure, probably because of improper installation.
Several causes I could think of, most of them about trapping water under a low-perm barrier that permanently keeps the primer in an uncured state of mush (so it's actually a bond breaker instead of bond enhancer):
- Membrane installed too soon over self leveling, before it's fully gotten rid of all it's water. Hard enough to walk on and set tile isn't necessarily the same as dry enough for primer. I see that the latest instructions call for a moisture test and require a dry floor. Are you 100% sure that wasn't the case when you installed it?
- Membrane installed too soon before primer is dry, almost the same as above.
- With one side exposed, it could have gotten rained on in the days before it was sealed in with the underlayment.
- It looks like the current instructions require a sealer, not primer over a slightly damp slab. The old 15-year tile could have withstood a damp slab just fine, but perhaps not a modern primer.
- Some primers don't really cure, they just dry, and can possibly re-emulsify if combined long term with trapped moisture, another possible problem with higher ground/slab moisture.
- Also look for a primer installed too thick or not diluted per the instructions. Do you know exactly which product they used as a primer?
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Unread 11-24-2015, 02:19 PM   #9
Lump
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The exact primer was the greenskin primer (which is green in color)

Greenskin primer is no longer available.


My guess is that the primer was not suitable for exterior projects.

I'm thinking we overthought the project and put the bond breaker in place with the primer. I may not know 100% until spring time......


Mapei ultraplan extreme was poured the day before. see link below

http://www.mapei.com/public/US/produ...reme_EN_lr.pdf
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Unread 11-24-2015, 04:12 PM   #10
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Any expansion joints? You said a bay door. That would be exposed to sun and wind. Also did the customer wait 30 days to turn on the in floor heating?
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Unread 11-26-2015, 07:50 PM   #11
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Here is a picture of the greenskin down. If you look on edges you can see the green greenskin primer.Name:  14485887035031.jpg
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Unread 11-27-2015, 07:42 PM   #12
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That sucks.

Do you think it's a product failure or an installation failure?
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Unread 11-28-2015, 05:26 PM   #13
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Primers can have a lot do with it, but also is it rated for outdoors? I just did a deck in tiles but this was a deck over a living space and in a freezing climate so frost/ thaw cycles makes this difficult. I contacted my Schluter rep and there was a long list of steps which I had to do make this work.. The waterproofing membrane was Jiffy seal 140/60 and came with a primer.
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Unread 08-08-2016, 08:37 AM   #14
Lump
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Problem is deeper.

We finally tore out this project and found that the problem is at the bottom with the Mapei Ultraplan Extreme. Will post more pictures as I receive them from the installation team. Any help/advice would be great. We are demoing all the leveler, heat cable and tile then starting fresh.
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Unread 08-08-2016, 08:46 AM   #15
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[attach][attach]Name:  midstate pic 3.jpg
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Size:  82.6 KB[/attach][/attach]
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