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Unread 06-01-2015, 06:19 PM   #16
Tiger Mountain Tile Inc
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Any thoughts about filming the meetings and putting them up for others to watch? If people start watching them it might get them a little more invested in the process, no?

Just an idea.
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Unread 06-01-2015, 09:17 PM   #17
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Gotta be there in person, Dana.

Jim, I fear any such attempt would have a chilling effect on the open conduct of the meetings. A great deal of the real work and discussion takes place in subcommittees and otherwise behind the scenes, but I don't think the actual committee meetings, although mostly open to the public or membership, would work well with cameras and floodlights.
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Unread 06-01-2015, 09:54 PM   #18
Higher Standard Tile
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Is that the same reason no TV cameras are in the Supreme Court?

But I do agree that filming committee meetings would not be helpful.

Glad the medium bed thing is a little clearer.
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Unread 06-02-2015, 06:24 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
If you don't exceed the allowed thickness on the thinset using it it on a flatten and install as you go basis don't worry about it. The change was to further define and elminate using thinset as a floor flattening material followed by another layer of thinset. It is designed for bonding, not flattening.
There do appear to be at least some mortars designed for flattening. Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing that out.

Ardex FB-9L
Quote:
Use to pre-smooth existing concrete up to 2” in a neat
application. For deeper areas, blend part of mixed ARDEX
FB 9 L with 3 part of 8”-4” pea gravel. Installation of the
tile can proceed in 6 hours.
Ardex X-7 Plus
Quote:
Rough or uneven substrates may first be treated with a
full scratch coat of ARDEX X 7™ PLUS up to 1/4” thick.
Installation of tiles may begin after the scratch coat has
hardened overnight.
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Unread 06-02-2015, 08:04 AM   #20
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Standards are always superseded by manufacturer recommendations. Ardex makes some excellent products. If they want to make that recommendation that is up to them. If you wish to follow it, great! That would be some expensive floor fill. European based manufacturing companies have always done as they want. However a country like Germany has have over 200 craft training centers in their country alone which means they (craftsmen) tend to function at a high level in their trade. It is illegal for a tile setter to do work outside his trade in most of Europe. In the US there are no such limitations. With Craigslist and business cards you can be whatever you want in the US, no training required. And that is where the problem is.

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Unread 06-02-2015, 09:09 AM   #21
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Thanks Dave. I agree the lack of training in this country is a problem (to say nothing of trained craftsman who just dont give a crap), but I think Germany swings too far in the other direction. Illegal to work "outside your trade"? No thanks.
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Unread 06-02-2015, 10:03 AM   #22
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It's a big industry. It's hard to come up with blanket rules that work for every corner of it. If the world were made up of nothing but 40sq ft. bathroom floors the rules would look different than 4000 sq ft. floors with paid specifiers, accountants, and attorneys on hand.

That being said, I feel like the tweaked definition helps the big money projects but comes a little bit at the expense of us small time residential guys. I thought I'd see if one of the many minds on here had any ideas on a way to fine tune it.

If the way this it is currently is the best way then it's the best way.
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Unread 06-02-2015, 10:45 AM   #23
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Jim, the tile contractors in the room are always defending any and all size tile contractors. The problem stems from how the product has been sold to the consumer. Medium bed mortars were sold on the basis of being able to support bigger and heavier tiles, this in turn led to manufacturer reps looking the other way when people started using the mortar to fix floors. I do not see how the tweaks hurt the small guy, if you use the mortar correctly then there should be no issues. If you want to build it up outside the recommendations, then you are making a calculated business decision. How the mortar is used outside the recommendations is not a problem until there is a failure. At that point the standards will be used against any sized tile contractor.
As for the training aspect, I wish there was a magic bullet. We are developing an apprenticeship program right now that we hope will help develop tomorrow's installers today. All I can say is that if more of these bad installers were made to pay for their mistakes, our industry would be better off.
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Unread 06-02-2015, 10:53 AM   #24
Brad Denny
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I see what you're saying Jim, but consider this interpretation...

"As the installation professional...I am free to work within the capabilities of the mortars as recommended by the manufacturer if I choose, BUT you cannot ask me to use those mortars in lieu of floor preparation I deem necessary to provide a proper installation."

I consider the Handbook as a shield against litigation, and it seems the shield gets bigger and bigger every year!
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Unread 06-02-2015, 11:17 AM   #25
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BTW James, thanks for reminding me of this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tileaz
I am on my soap box, but the whole "anti-fracture" nomenclature is as dangerous as owners are expecting that no cracks occur even in the grout joint. Remember the term crack isolation, and the ANSI standard is crack isolation, there is no industry recognized standard for anti-fracture membrane. Eric will agree that crack isolation is the theory of moving the crack in the substrate to the weakest part of the tile installation which is usually the grout joint.
I'm afraid I forget to clarify this and leave clients with the impression my application will hold the building together.
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Unread 06-02-2015, 07:18 PM   #26
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Jim, if you want to tweak it, tweak away. Anyone can make a submittal and request a change. Most people bail because of the amount of work (all gratis including expenses) required to submit and follow a change. But know this, all are welcome. NTCA also has a Methods and Standards committee and more than a few members have proposed changes and had them accepted.
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Unread 06-02-2015, 08:07 PM   #27
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Are we now required to waterproof all the way to the ceiling in a shower if the tile goes that high? I thought it was only to the shower head unless it is a steam shower. Specifically looking at the new curbless shower requirements on page 246.
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Unread 06-03-2015, 08:05 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Denny
I see what you're saying Jim, but consider this interpretation...

"As the installation professional...I am free to work within the capabilities of the mortars as recommended by the manufacturer if I choose, BUT you cannot ask me to use those mortars in lieu of floor preparation I deem necessary to provide a proper installation."
Well said. And a good way for me to look at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Gobis
Jim, if you want to tweak it, tweak away. Anyone can make a submittal and request a change.
This is something I didn't know. I like what Brad said above so I'm not going to pursue anything but it does feel empowering to know that I can at least try to change something.

Hmmmmm......
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Unread 06-03-2015, 02:58 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
With Craigslist and business cards you can be whatever you want in the US, no training required. And that is where the problem is.
Absolutely 100% true... but, it's also why America is the land of opportunity.
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Unread 06-03-2015, 07:23 PM   #30
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just ordered my cd with the sundry of publications

can't wait to start bitching . . .

just kidding --

I have plenty of other things in the queue --
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