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Unread 07-28-2013, 09:39 PM   #16
Higher Standard Tile
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Ron plenty of tile installers do not apply a surface applied waterproof membrane or a moisture barrier behind the cement board when doing tub surrounds. That doesn't mean it is correct or meets industry standards.

They usually say they have been doing it that way for 20 years and never had a problem.

Sometimes there are no visible problems but nothing your installer has done so far garauntees "leak proof". If they just tile over it as is you will definitely have problems at the tub flange.

If they had installed a moisture barrier behind the cement board he might have a case that the Redgard is an 'extra'.

Tile, grout, thinset and cement board are unaffected by water but are not waterproof. They do not stop water transmission.

If he does apply the Redgard make sure they apply two coats at the proper thickness after all the joints in the cement board have been filled with thinset and covered with alkaline resistant mesh tape. (Allow thinset to dry before Redgard.) A quick thin coat of Redgard won't do much good.

And when they start setting tile make sure they use thinset, dry powder in a 50lb bag. If they show up with a 3.5 gallon pail of ceramic tile adhesive/ mastic or "premixed thinset" just say no.
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Last edited by Higher Standard Tile; 07-28-2013 at 10:26 PM. Reason: Typo
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Unread 07-28-2013, 09:47 PM   #17
dhowardpeters
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac
Tile, grout, thinset and cement board are unaffected by water but are not waterproof. They do not stop water transmission.
So that's how you say that succintly? Excellent!
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Unread 07-29-2013, 07:38 AM   #18
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The tile industry should put some pressure on the CBU manufacturers to put a disclaimer on their product.... "Concrete backer board is moisture resistant, not waterproof. To create a waterproof environment other products are required in conjunction with the concrete backer board to work as a system." Or something like that.

Problem is, someone won't comply with posting the disclaimer on the product and folks will think that it somehow is waterproof by itself....
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Unread 07-29-2013, 12:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
The tile industry should put some pressure on the CBU manufacturers to put a disclaimer on their product.... "Concrete backer board is moisture resistant, not waterproof. To create a waterproof environment other products are required in conjunction with the concrete backer board to work as a system." Or something like that.

Problem is, someone won't comply with posting the disclaimer on the product and folks will think that it somehow is waterproof by itself....
We always use the terms unaffected by water with our CBU. That was where the classic vapor and moisture barrier (felt or poly) came from was to capture the moisture that penetrates classic cement boards. The purpose of CBU's was to create a substrate that wouldn't swell or break down in a wet area (along with the other benefits of mold and mildew resistances) and keep your tile firmly seated on the wall.

Waterproof in wet areas in doors usually has to meet ANSI 118.10, which is a 2' head of water for 48 hours with no penetration through the surface. I can tell you from experience that CBUs look kind of like fountains when you put that much pressure on them.
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Unread 07-29-2013, 04:55 PM   #20
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Thanks everybody for all the help!

I talked to my contractor today. He told me again that he doesn't think it is necessary. He said he uses the Redgard when does showers only without tubs, but I told him I definitely want the Redgard.

At first, he said he could just tape the seams and do the Redguard at the same time. I insisted that he tape and thinset the seams first, then let it dry for a day, and then do the Redguard.

Tomorrow he will be doing the seams with the mesh tape and thinset, and Wednesday he will be doing the Redgard.

He also said he wants to start the tile installation on Wednesday. I guess he can do this, since it says it only takes around an hour for the Redgard to dry? That should give him enough time to apply two layers of the Redgard in the morning and start the tiling in the afternoon.
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Unread 07-29-2013, 08:33 PM   #21
Tool Guy - Kg
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Once the RedGard turns solid red, it's dry and ready for a second coat. With the first coat being applied over Durock, it will likely dry quite fast.

Once the second coat turns solid red it's dry and ready for tile.

Don't force it dry with a fan, though. With a warm temperature and reasonable humidity, it will likely dry fast enough to be tiling sometime in the afternoon.

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Unread 07-29-2013, 09:05 PM   #22
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Several tile questions... tiling starts Wednesday... help!

Hi all,

Like the title says, my contractor is planning to start tiling the walls and ceiling around my tub in my little master bath on Wednesday. I actually bought the tile over a year ago, but got hit with some financial setbacks that delayed the job until now.

Now that tiling time has arrived, I realize I haven't really put a lot of thought into how I want the tile installed. I kind of thought I knew, but now I'm feeling a bit unsure, and I also thought of some other questions. Figured I'd put them all in 1 thread so I don't hog up the whole message board

Ok, here we go, and I'll apologize in advance for such a long post.

This is my bathroom:

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This is my 6.5x6.5 porcelain 'carrara-looking' tile:

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This is my 3x13 bullnose:

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Alright, now some questions.

I was thinking of having the tile installed in a 'staggered' layout, instead of in straight up and down rows. I will also have a strip of accent tile (4 rows of it) going around the tub at about eye level.

--> Is it ok, or does it look odd to have square tile staggered like that? I know they do it with the rectangular subway tile.

--> Should I just do it in straight rows from top to bottom?

--> Are there any issues doing it staggered like that as far as the installation is concerned? (See pic below)

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Ok, now the bullnose. I'm not sure why I bought long 3x13 bullnose like that. If I remember right, they also had a 3x6.5 length. Maybe it was a little cheaper? I really can't remember.

--> Will the long bullnose look weird, or will it look ok?

Also concerning the bullnose. It's going to run along the top outer edge of the soffit and then come down each wall. (I guess that's obvious, but I took a couple pics anyway ). Now I just realized that when the bullnose going along the ceiling meets the bullnose going down the wall, it's not going to meet flush.

--> Will the tile guy just cut it to meet flush, or do they make a special piece of tile that fits in corners like that? (pics below):

Going along the soffit ceiling:
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and then going down the wall:
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and the space that's left when they meet:
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Ok, one last bullnose question.

--> When the bullnose comes down the wall and reaches the tub, should I expect it to just end there, or should the tile guy cut it so it will reach all the way to the floor? I'm not sure which way would look right (see pic below):

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Now a question about my 4' vanity backsplash. I have a carrara-looking vanity top, and it came with a matching backsplash and sidesplash (the vanity will be against the wall on the back and left side). However, I was thinking about using that accent tile I have for the shower wall (maybe 6 or 8 rows) and have the tile guy make a backsplash out of that.

--> Do you think that would look cool?
--> Is it difficult to do that and make it look nice?
--> Should there be some kind of border around the outer edge of it, or would they just caulk around the outer edge?

Ok, I think that's it

Thank you so much if you took the time read all this nonsense and have any suggestions/answers/thoughts about all this.

I know I shouldn't be stressing out so much about what is really just a simple, straight-forward bathroom renovation, but I can't help it
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Last edited by jgleason; 07-31-2013 at 05:30 AM. Reason: please use the paperclip icon to attach images
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Unread 07-29-2013, 09:22 PM   #23
chuck stevenson
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Ron.

It would be best to stay with one thread per project.

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...d.php?t=108483

This makes it easier to see what questions have been asked and answered.

One issue I see is the lack of waterproofing at the tub legs. This intersection is prone to failure.
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Unread 07-29-2013, 09:31 PM   #24
Frizzle
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Ah sorry about that, I should have posted this in that thread. Can it be moved to that thread somehow?

By tub legs, do you just mean the left and right sides of the tub where it touches the wall and goes down to the floor?

On the left side, they did put a small strip of cement board going down to the floor (but in the one picture it is mostly covered with spackle).

On the right side, the space between the tub and the sheet rock was a little narrower, and they didn't put anything there (yet). When the contractor comes tomorrow I was going to question him about that and see if he can put a piece of cement board in that space also.

Is there anything else that could or should be done in those areas?

Thanks.
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Unread 07-29-2013, 09:37 PM   #25
Tool Guy - Kg
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I'd recommend running that bullnose from the edge of the soffit, all the way down to the floor. From your picture, it looks like your tiler will need to trim off approximately 1" from the 3" wide bullnose to fit around your tub. Trimming that is fairly simple with a wetsaw and is done all the time.

Get rid of the water soluble drywall compound covering the cement board on the left side of the tub apron that will be covered with tile. Otherwise it will be a weak link when moisture gets in there and pose a delamination liability. A damp sponge will remove it in a hurry.

That gap between the cement board and tub needs to be filled. After it's waterproofed with RedGard, use 100% silicone to seal it off before the tile is installed.

And I merged your threads. If you'd like the title changed to something else, just mention it and the first mod who sees your note will be happy to do it for you.

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Unread 07-29-2013, 09:49 PM   #26
Frizzle
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Thanks for the help Tool Guy!

I will clean off that spackle with a sponge, and I will make sure that they use silicone to seal up that area after they apply the Redgard.

For changing the title of the thread, I guess if someone could just add in parenthesis... Durock around tub crumbled/broken in spots (plus more questions on Page 2)
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Unread 07-29-2013, 09:56 PM   #27
Tool Guy - Kg
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Your wish is my command on the title change. But do realize that the folks helping answer questions come back to the same threads repeatedly to check on them. But if you ever feel your questions aren't being answered, feel free to make a blank post that says:

"Bump"


...to get you a little more attention.

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Unread 07-29-2013, 10:17 PM   #28
Frizzle
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Ok I will do that

I'm very thankful for all the great information I've gotten from everybody here.

Now I'll be able to supervise my contractor and his helpers and make sure everything is done to perfection

Luckily I have several vacation days saved up and I can be home most of the time while they are working.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 01:01 AM   #29
Higher Standard Tile
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Ron did you discuss the tile layout with the contractor before he bid it?

Any layout change or accent row adds more time to install which should equal more money.

I like getting creative with my clients but I get frustrated when I'm just about to start setting tile and they want to change the layout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Guy
That gap between the cement board and tub needs to be filled. After it's waterproofed with RedGard, use 100% silicone to seal it off before the tile is installed.
This is really important. If they just waterproof the board but don't deal with the gap at the tub flange you will have problems.

I like 100% silicone or a urethane sealant like Sika Flex
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Last edited by Higher Standard Tile; 07-30-2013 at 01:06 AM.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 06:17 AM   #30
Frizzle
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Hi Isaac,

Yes I told him I wanted the backsplash made from the accent tile. I will definitely make sure they seal up that gap too with silicone

Thanks for the help!
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