Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 12-04-2021, 06:37 AM   #1
KKB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 9
Does this need to be redone?

I'm new to the Forum and have an important question I'm hoping you can help with. I recently had a master bath shower tiled. Now questions have been raised on whether it was done properly and whether it should be completely torn out and redone.

It was done with 4X12" subway tiles. A few details in question:
-The contractor used 1/4" Hardi backer for the walls screwed to the studs with seams Kerdi taped. I'm told it should always be 1/2" backer.
-There are no expansion joints at the corners where two walls meet which is an issue if the house should shift.
-The floor was the cement slab for the house. It was sealed with a paint on sealer and the floor tiles were laid with Mapei thinset supposedly built up enough to create the pan using only a 1/8" over 12" slope. Needless to say, that didn't work as there is virtually no slope to it and it doesn't drain properly at all and has sunken in in various places.

The tile job itself looks very nice. If the floor had drained I'd probably not have even considered anything else wrong. But I had someone come in to look at the floor and when they heard some of the details of the construction I was told that the shower will fail because it doesn't meet ANSI or NTCA Standards and the best solution would be to replace the entire project.

I'm leery of contacting the original contractor on redoing it because he told me in the beginning that his showers never leak and this is the way he does it. I doubt it would be done properly a second time.

I have an appointment with my attorney this week to discuss possible remedies.
If you folks could give me any opinions on the work or possible remedy I'd really appreciate it.
Please excuse me if this is a question I can't ask here. Thanks very much.
__________________
Kurt
KKB is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 12-04-2021, 08:08 AM   #2
ss3964spd
Moderator
 
ss3964spd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fairfax, Va
Posts: 4,661
Send a message via Yahoo to ss3964spd
Hi Kurt, welcome - but sorry you're here given the circumstances.

The 1/2" Hardie (about 7/16" actual) backer board should have been used for the walls. With typical 16" OC stud spacing the 1/4" is just too flexible between the studs.

Hardie does not expand or contract much, and there is nothing about leaving an expansion joint in the installation instructions. Taping the seams with Kedi is fine. Any idea if there is a moisture barrier behind the Hardie, or a liquid membrane applied to the face of the Hardie?

As for the shower floor, we'd have to know what "paint on sealer" was used. Was it red in color, green? Have any photos?

More concerning to me is what drain assembly they used, and how that might have been integrated (or not) into the above mentioned paint on sealer.

Regardless, the lack of proper slope is a fail. Moreover, using built up thinset mortar to create a slope is not the proper use of the product - it has limits as to its maximum thickness. Excess thickness has a tendency to shrink when it cures. Finally, it's very difficult to create a consistent slope. Also, thinset mortar is not water proof so any water that is absorbed by the tile and gets through the grout will soak into the mortar and eventually settle on the concrete slab, where it will just sit on whatever that paint on sealer was applied. It sounds like the installer did not provide any sort of pre-slope at all.

Let start there, others will be along to offer their long distance assessment. If you have any photos of the work being done or the products used do post them here.
__________________
Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent, but my ability to access it is intermittent.
ss3964spd is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2021, 08:21 AM   #3
KKB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 9
Thanks Dan. The Hardie backer was painted with a green sealer as was the floor. No membrane was used anywhere floor to wall or around the drain. The drain was set into the old drain pipe and surrounded with cement. He told me the waterproof grout used and the tile would not leak. "I've done this for 40 years and I've never had one leak."

The expansion joints I referenced were between the tiles at the corners. I was told by another contractor that he should not have used grout there, but an expansion product instead due to potential movement.

The floor has no slope at all when I put my 2 foot level on it and in some place slopes away from the drain. There are multiple high and low spots I guess due to the contraction of the thinset.

I enclosed a few pics. I'm just wondering if the whole thing does need to be redone. I'm thinking probably yes. Thus my appt. with the attorney to discuss the best to proceed before any more contact with the contractor.
Attached Images
   
__________________
Kurt

Last edited by KKB; 12-04-2021 at 08:29 AM.
KKB is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2021, 08:30 AM   #4
KKB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 9
Another pic.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Kurt
KKB is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2021, 08:57 AM   #5
ss3964spd
Moderator
 
ss3964spd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fairfax, Va
Posts: 4,661
Send a message via Yahoo to ss3964spd
Is that a raw tile edge showing in the picture of the curb from inside the shower? It also looks like he bit off the hex's with his teeth around the drain. It also appears the drain grate is not captured in place by the grout - how is one to remove the grate for cleaning?

You, and your consultant are correct; the installer should have created a movement accommodation joint between the tiles in the corners and filed the joint with a flexible sealant - typically 100% silicone. Tile should not be butted against each other. Many people will use grout in the corner joints instead of sealant, and that grout is likely to crack, but if the shower is properly water proofed the cracked grout is a cosmetic issue only. Regardless, if those tiles are hard against each other, it's wrong.

The lack of a pre-slope is an issue; water that gets past the grout and tile will soak into the under lying mortar and just collect on the flat floor. The drain assembly used can't allow accumulated water to escape via weep holes because there are no weep holes in that drain assembly. It might not leak, but it will certainly retain water.

That the tile floor has insufficient slope towards the drain, no slope, and in some places negative slope is an out right failure and grounds to have at least the shower floor re-done.

Those are just the errors we can see. Many here will suspect there are errors we cannot see.
__________________
Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent, but my ability to access it is intermittent.
ss3964spd is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2021, 08:57 AM   #6
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 94,477
Welcome, Kurt.

A geographic location in your User Profile will be helpful here.

You've certainly got problems there. And I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard of a contractor saying "I've been doing it this way for (enter large number) years and never had a failure." This fella has a failure with your shower before it's ever used.

James Hardie once permitted the use of his 1/4" panels over wall studs spaced at 16" on center, but I no longer see that in his installation instructions. You might want to ask your contractor to show you the published instructions he's relying upon for his installation.

The lack of a proper drain (I can't actually tell just what drain you have) and the lack of a proper method of connecting a liquid-applied direct bonded waterproofing membrane to it is just one of the failures built into your existing shower.

I'd like to see some in-progress photos of the curb area of this shower.

The abbreviation you're looking for, by the way, is TCNA, rather than NTCA. Yes the abbreviations are confusing, but it's the Tile Council of North Amearica's published Handbook of published methods that you want to reference. Along with ANSI A108 and A118, of course.

I know of no way to correct the deficiencies in your shower receptor construction that would not require demolition and re-construction.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2021, 09:58 AM   #7
KKB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 9
Thanks. CX, I'm in North Carolina. Fixed it.
Drain is one from Lowe's. Brass and I don't think it has weep holes. The only water proofing of the floor would be the one he painted on and the waterproof grout.

Curb was a 4X4 with Hardibacker attached over it. Raw tile edge on top is correct.
(I broke the edge with some sand paper myself.)


Walls are 3 1/2 feet front and back with extra blocking for the plumbing in front. The 2 walls by the doorway are 10 inches and 22 inches with PVC trim added. Back wall is exterior and 5 1/2 feet. They feel pretty solid, bit I know there's still the 1/4 backer board issue.

I'm just trying to figure out if the whole thing needs to be redone or if the wall corners can be re-grouted with silicone and the floor can be redone.

Sounds more and more like the whole thing needs to be ripped out and replaced. I was trying to avoid that mess and any legal battles on it.
Thanks again guys.
Attached Images
     
__________________
Kurt
KKB is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2021, 10:56 AM   #8
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 94,477
Kurt, the photos we really need to see are those prior to any tile installation.

The photo with the door in it, is that in the shower area?

"Drain from Lowe's" doesn't tell us much. The drain grate clearly identifies it as an Oatey drain, but I can't tell which one. I'm thinking it's a floor drain, rather than an appropriate clamping drain, with no effective, or manufacturer approved, method of attaching the waterproof liner. That would be an immediate fail, according to the product manufacturers, the tile industry standards, and probably your local building code.

Perhaps someone with experience in your State's requirements will point out the requirement, or lack thereof, for you to give the contractor the opportunity to correct his mistakes before you hire someone else to do so or take any legal action against him. That's the more common procedure in my experience. It complicates matters because if your contractor was actually capable of correcting all the errors in your construction, he would have done the work correctly in the first place.

Tough situation. Using an attorney is gonna be costly (unless maybe he's your BIL? ). Having the shower re-done and then taking the matter to Small Claims Court might be more cost effective if your State provides for such actions and the recovery limits are appropriate.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2021, 11:01 AM   #9
ss3964spd
Moderator
 
ss3964spd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fairfax, Va
Posts: 4,661
Send a message via Yahoo to ss3964spd
Though not correct, the 1/4" Hardie on the walls may not be a major issue, Kurt, unless someone looses their balance and puts weight on the wall between the studs. If it flexes enough tile might crack.

The butted tiles in the corners - again, may not turn out to be an issue, depends on how much the wall framing might move. Regardless, those corners should have a joint equal to the width of the other grout joints. If some of the tiles are indeed butted together grout cannot be forced into the joint and a flexible sealer (100% silicone caulk) can't, effectively, be either. Only way to fix that is to remove the tiles, cut them properly, and reinstall. Issue there is the paint on water proofing will likely be damaged when removing a tile and that could be difficult to fix.

The floor must come out to properly repair it. And a proper repair (well, rebuild in your case) will add additional height to the floor. Code says that the top of the finished shower curb should be a minimum of 2" above the height of the finished shower floor. To achieve that it's possible the curb will have to be re-built also (does the top of the curb slope towards the drain?). In order to rebuild the floor the bottom row of wall tile will have to be removed. Doing so will almost certainly compromise the water proofing, which will be difficult to effectively repair. Finally, the drain assembly will need to be replaced, employing one compatible with the method used for rebuilding the floor.
__________________
Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent, but my ability to access it is intermittent.
ss3964spd is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2021, 12:00 PM   #10
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 33,714
Yep, the drain used looks to be one for a preformed base that has no weep holes. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Oatey-101-S...Drain/50314993

Not sure how he rigged it but it appears that it's not the right drain for a tiled shower.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com

Last edited by Davy; 12-04-2021 at 12:10 PM.
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2021, 12:04 PM   #11
KKB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 9
Thanks again very much you guys.
CX- No the door in the pic is from the bedroom onto the bath, about 6 feet away from the shower. Kind of an optical illusion. The trim around the shower entry you see is PVC.
Drain probably is a floor drain as you describe it. There were no clamping parts just a pipe.
Before the install was normal 16 on center stud walls. He put the backer on them, sealed the joints with Hardi tape and mud, then painted on a green colored sealer. After that was the tile.

I will see if I can't find out about the local codes or any state requirements along with the ANSI and TCNA.

After listening to you folks. I'm thinking the wall corner issues can be fixed. So the walls may be able to stay. He actually did a pretty decent job on them.

The major deal will be the floor slope, waterproofing, and proper drain. And that's a big, big issue, especially if any lower tile has to be removed. One of the guys who looked at it was afraid the 1/4" Hardi board would be damaged in taking off the tiles. I sent off an email to Hardi and they responded that there would be a really good chance for damage. Then what? That's where I guess you pretty much have get into a complete redo.

I guess I just sit down with the standards and tell him nicely, "This is what needs to be done and how it has to be done. If you'll do it that way fine, no problem, but it's on you not me. If not, I'll do what I need to to get my money back from you and have someone else redo the shower correctly."

Tough decisions to make. I really appreciate the help.
__________________
Kurt
KKB is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2021, 12:07 PM   #12
KKB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 9
Davy, This is the drain.
__________________
Kurt
KKB is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-04-2021, 12:48 PM   #13
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 33,714
Yes, it's basically the same drain in my link. We don't know how he has it connected underneath. That's what we need to see.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-09-2021, 09:02 AM   #14
KKB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 9
Many thanks to everyone. I've got some further details on the install if it's of help.

He used Hardi 1/4 cement Backer on the walls. I checked with Hardi and they say it's okay provided there is blocking behind the joints. I doubt that there are. All of the joints were taped with Kerdi tape, mud and then the walls and floor were coated with the waterproof membrane below. Given the sizes of the walls there weren't that many seams.

Waterproof membrane used for walls and floor was Aquaguard. It is IAPMO-listed for use as a shower-pan liner, and exceeds ANSI A118.10 and ANSI A118.12 standards.
Thinset used was Mapei and meets ANSI 118.4, 1118.11.

Grout used was Mapei Flexcolor CQ which meets ANSI 118.3 and 118.6

So as of now, based on what several of you folks have said, I'm thinking the walls are probably okay provided the too-thin corner joints are repaired if possible.

Just so you guys know, I'm only speaking with the attorney to make sure I do this correctly. I'm not looking for any type of legal action. I'm asking because I may need to have that info for him to advise me on how to go forward when I speak with the contractor about the fix.

The floor will definitely have to be redone. So since the floor was sealed to the wall all around with the IAPMO membrane and the Kerdi tape I'm wondering if the tile can be taken up and the floor redone somehow without removing the bottom few rows of wall tile?

We may need to write up how to fix this right and I'd be interested in what you guys think. Can you get away with the proper slope and floor drain somehow? Or does this absolutely have to have a fabric membrane of some sort up running the walls and a drain with a bonding flange, etc. Is it an old school vs new methods way of doing things?

I'd really appreciate any advice on the re-install. Thanks very much .
__________________
Kurt
KKB is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-09-2021, 09:40 AM   #15
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 94,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt
All of the joints were taped with Kerdi tape,...
Can you be a little more specific about this "Kerdi tape?" I'm familiar with Kerdi Band and Kerdi membrane, but not Kerdi tape.

How 'bout a link to this "Aquaguard" waterproofing product, Kurt. I'm not familiar with it and all I can Google up is a foundation waterproofing product.

And be careful with those technical specifications. The Flexcolor CQ is a type of grout for which there is not yet a tile industry standard. Their TDS says it meets "specific tests in ANSI A118.3 and ANSI A118.6 covering other grout types." When it comes to technical arguments, you wanna be accurate.

Not gonna say it's impossible to fix those corner joints, but I'm seriously doubtful he can do it successfully and without damaging the waterproofing membrane.

While there are methods of creating a shower receptor using a liquid-applied membrane with a traditional clamping drain, it cannot be done without removing the existing receptor, which would require removing at least the bottom row of wall tile and that would probably leave you with no adequate method of tying the new receptor waterproofing with the existing wall waterproofing.

Bottom line: You paid for a new and properly constructed and waterproofed shower, not a patched together and possibly adequate shower.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Should I ask for this to be redone? TypeA Tile Forum/Advice Board 15 06-04-2014 05:24 PM
Should I ask this tile job to be redone? 1776 Tile Forum/Advice Board 29 10-28-2013 07:40 PM
Shower pan need to be redone, advice please! yates90 Tile Forum/Advice Board 8 05-27-2010 06:46 PM
Tile Gurus: Would You Have This Backsplash Redone? Lynn91 Tile Forum/Advice Board 12 05-30-2009 12:57 PM
Just had shower redone and have several questions dmz Cleaning, Restoration and Sealing 3 12-23-2005 06:01 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:44 AM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC