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Unread 12-27-2019, 11:02 AM   #16
Tool Guy - Kg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrymlr1 in post #8.....yep, post #8
...and all but one fail in the adhesion test...
Which one didn’t fail, Jerry?
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Unread 12-27-2019, 12:26 PM   #17
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Jerry
I cant tell you how many calls I get every year about tiles falling off in a swimming pool. I tend to stay away from the repairs due to my lack of knowledge about proper adhesives to use in a swimming pool. From reading your response I can see its not all cut and dry. I also figure if a few are falling off, how many are just hanging there ready to do a dive!!
I was thinking to go out to Ardex and get some training on swimming pool tiling. I was there a few years back and they do have a nice facility.
I do know when I'm on a job and the pool is being built, the pool tiler usually has a bag of Custom from HD.
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Unread 12-29-2019, 02:23 PM   #18
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I had replied earlier and accidentally closed the tab....
Bubba, I have done some testing by attaching glass mosaics to a cement block with various thinsets. The samples set for 30 days then were submerged for 30. They were left ungrouted. Generally speaking, when I tried to pry the tile they all came up relatively easy in one piece, all but the tile with the Grani Rapid which either didn't break free at all or in pieces. I have done similar tests with different tiles and all basically the same results. Like I mentioned in the previous post, 3 or so years later the mosaics set with Grani Rapid were removed just as easily as the other thinsets after 30 days. I did however pressure wash the entire pool and spa with a 4000 psi washer to remove the failed urethane grout (that's a story in itself) and only lost 3 or 4 tiles in the process.
When it comes to Ardex, I have used the x77 once. It seemed no different than other lite thinsets. Ardex only recommends their portland based thinset for waterline tile. Only their epoxy for setting and grouting for all tile pools. I'm not up for that. Currently I'm using a "submersion approved" thinset and backbuttering with my portland/sand grout with Anti-Hydro added to the mixing water. You're right Dave. Nothing cut and dry here.
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Unread 12-30-2019, 08:09 AM   #19
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Hi Jerry,

I think next time you do some testing you should use two blocks: one to be submerged and the other not.
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Unread 12-30-2019, 08:59 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
I think next time you do some testing you should use two blocks: one to be submerged and the other not.
Yzat?
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Unread 01-02-2020, 01:52 PM   #21
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First let me say, I am not a chemist. I am an installer that has worked for setting material manufacturers for close to 40 years.

It is typical to see a drop in strengths for vitreous tiles (porcelain and glass) from when initially set to 30 days later. We just did some testing for a large glass mosaic manufacturer out of Italy. Per ANSI A137.2, the samples were installed over an ISO block, cured 21 days then submerged for 7 more days. We chose to also test after 14 days submerged the difference between testing at 7 and 14 days was a drop of 25% in tensile strength at 14 days. The strengthens we received with Adesilex P10 and Keraply exceeded the requirements of the glass standard. I would expect similar results with Kerabond/ Keralastic, even better results with Granirapid.

jerrymlr1, I am glad you found better testing results with Granirapid. I think John's suggestion is valid. Testing submerged or a a dry cured block, I think you will see a drop in results from 7 days cure to 30 days cure. I would expect you to see a drop in both wet and dry at 30 days. The ANSI A118.4 & A118.15 do too.

The problem with addressing jobsite issues is there may be other factors; the substrate, lack of coverage or expansion joints. Most glass tile issues I see, is lack of expansion joints. Glass is the most expansive tile we have and few accommodate for the movement of the glass much less the thermal and moisture.
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Unread 01-02-2020, 02:55 PM   #22
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Jim - I’m curious as to the details. I thought bond strength would be a fairly linear increase (or at the least, constantly increasing value) over time. I wouldn’t have expected it to hit a peak, then decrease.
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Unread 01-02-2020, 02:57 PM   #23
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I guess the reason I asked why I would test a dry block is that it doesn't concern me. I deal with submerged glass tile installations and my tests were done to give me some knowledge about which thinsets work better in that environment. When it comes to expansion joints in pools, most all tile pools if not all do not have expansion joints cris-crossing every 10 ft or whatever is required by manufacturers. No one paying the big bucks for all tile pools wants to look at expansion joints for one. Also, the pool when filled is a much more stable environment and expansion is not much of an issue. The few times I have seen tile fall off were from the gunite or shotcrete pool structure cracking for whatever reasons, or the coping stone was not adhered properly and the top row of tile was affected. I have also seen where the slab was poured over the bond beam and the slab pushed the tiles off because the bond beam was not properly prepared. Then of course there's the mesh backed tile in pools..... When I say that I'm talking about the mosaics that are covered in the mesh glue and there is really no area that the tile is bonded. Requirement s are 90-100% coverage and yet most mosaics are covered in 50% or more with mesh and vinyl acetate. I believe the missing expansion joints is just an excuse by material manufacturers as an excuse or "out" when there is a failure. With that said, I believe most installation failures can be traced back to installation error where the installer was not knowledgeable in the intricacies of glass mosaic submerged installations or worse, didn't care. I have done a few direct thinset methods in the past but won't do it any longer because of what I know or believe now about the long term strengths of thinset bonding glass tile under water.
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Unread 01-02-2020, 03:14 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim
It is typical to see a drop in strengths for vitreous tiles (porcelain and glass) from when initially set to 30 days later.
This is news to me as well. I also thought the bonding strength would increase for at least 30 days if not longer. And you are referring to dry as well as submerged with the loss of strength Jim?
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Unread 01-02-2020, 03:31 PM   #25
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I am sorry but this will have to be a quick response, I have to run. In a cement mortar to concrete substrate, you could expect continued strength gain. Because that is the nature of cement. I will try and review the other questions and answer better tomorrow.
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Unread 01-03-2020, 08:50 AM   #26
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OK, before I continue to answer questions on submerged applications/testing. I want to repeat my earlier statement in my first post here:
"First let me say, I am not a chemist. I am an installer that has worked for setting material manufacturers for close to 40 years."

ANSI is consistent is showing a drop after 7 to 14 days. See the attached Excel file for comparison testing between ANSI A118.4 and A118.15.

I thought this might add a better perspective.
Attached Files
File Type: xlsx ANSI Dry & Wet Shear Tests.xlsx (17.8 KB, 15 views)
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Unread 01-03-2020, 09:43 AM   #27
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So unless I am missing something, in a nutshell, portland cement gets stronger with time and the the latex in these thinsets get weaker in bonding strength. Other than dry conditions that's not news to me as you can tell in previous posts. Like Jim N said in an earlier, water is the universal solvent and I would have to agree with that especially when it comes to latex modified thinsets in a submerged application. Again, I don't see the mortar manufacturers doing long term testing. I think they can guess the results.
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Unread 01-03-2020, 11:54 AM   #28
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A long time ago in a place far away we here at the John Bridge Forums (all of us accredited scientists) did some 30-day testing of our own and found about that same rate of deterioration of bond strength in some of the modified products as well as in one of the so called "dryset" mortars. Being a guy who pays homage to several different manufacturers, I won't mention product names.
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Unread 01-03-2020, 10:20 PM   #29
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There's a lot of modifiers out there versus latex based (well, at least three, then, variations on those themes). Latex is probably the worst one for re-emulsifying. It was the basis of the first modified, and is still available but for some things, other types are better. Synthetic materials have come a long ways since those first, latex based modified thinsets made their first appearance.
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