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Unread 12-16-2019, 08:04 PM   #1
patssle
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What does standing water on the liner do?

First off as my first post I wanted to say how great this website is - I've been referencing it for weeks as I undertake my first DIY bathroom renovation.

I completed my first mud bed in a 60x30 shower with the drain on one end. I put down some plastic to do the slope test - most of the water drained but there's a few spots where the water pooled very thin. I don't think I can fix it with thinset due to my error in stopping the slope before the drain (long story short I cut some wood pitch guides for the edges but miscalculated the width/length of the cuts).

I'm assuming I'll need to re-do the mud bed and fix my first time errors.

1. What does a small amount of water pooling on the liner actually do - how is it bad?

2. Is removing the mud bed (with a thinset slurry coat to the concrete foundation) easy? Can it damage the drain?

3. Is it okay to do a 3/8" or even 1/2" slope or does it become noticeable/discomfort to a person in shower? Just to self-idiot proof and expand the room for error.

There will be a 1.5" bed on top of the liner.

Thanks!
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Unread 12-16-2019, 08:32 PM   #2
jadnashua
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I'd remove what's there. The bottom bit that's bonded to the slab might stick, but the rest of it will break out fairly easily.

The stuff is strong in compression but pretty weak, otherwise. It's intentionally porous and thus, there are fewer places where the cement can bond versus concrete mix. You can think of it like sort of a sponge.

Having some water pool on the liner means that you may end up with constantly wet grout lines, and depending on the tile selected, some of those will change color if they sit in water, too.
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Unread 12-16-2019, 09:43 PM   #3
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Welcome, Patric.

1. Would depend upon how much of this pooling you actually have. You don't really want any water to pool, you want it all should reach the weep holes in your drain.

Removing what you have, calling it practice, and creating a new mud bed wouldn't hurt at all. The components are dirt cheap and DIY labor's free, eh?

2. If it's very fresh, it shouldn't be too difficult. You could damage the drain, I suppose, but just a little care will prevent that.

3. If this is a pre-slope you can make it all a bit steeper than the required quarter-inch per foot. With your drain location (bad idea, that) you'll have some areas of your floor that will hafta be sloped far more than the required amount if you meet the requirement to the farthest point on your shower floor from the drain.

And while the final mud bed is sposta be of a consistent thickness and follow the pre-slope under the liner, you can make some adjustment for your pitch there if you want/need to. You'll still have a far greater pitch from the drain to the closer walls.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-17-2019, 06:02 AM   #4
Davy
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With the drain on the end, I wouldn't make the perimeter level. That would avoid the real steep areas where the drain is close to the walls like CX mentioned.
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Unread 12-17-2019, 09:02 AM   #5
patssle
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Quote:
Having some water pool on the liner means that you may end up with constantly wet grout lines
Even if the water pool is only 1/16 or 1/8 thick within a 1.5" mud bed - it can still possibly affect the tile/grout?

Quote:
You'll still have a far greater pitch from the drain to the closer walls.
Quote:
That would avoid the real steep areas where the drain is close to the walls like CX mentioned.
Why would that pitch be different for the area between the drain and the close walls as long as it conforms to the 1/4" rule?
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Unread 12-17-2019, 09:20 AM   #6
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Hi Patric,

I don't think a sixteenth in a long run is significant. In that type of shower (conventional pan) the final mud bed will stay wet with regular use anyway. Significant pool in the liner can cause stagnation, though.
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Unread 12-17-2019, 10:05 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patric
Why would that pitch be different for the area between the drain and the close walls as long as it conforms to the 1/4" rule?
If your perimeter is level, Patric, the pitch to the drain will be steeper where the drain is closer to the walls because the vertical distance is constant while the horizontal distance is shorter.

You can't violate the laws of geometry even if you're not askeered of gettin' a ticket, eh?
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Unread 12-17-2019, 01:04 PM   #8
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A picture of the water amount you're talking about would help Patric, without a visual reference we are all going to play it safe and assume the worst. When I pull the plug on my flood tests there are always residual drops of water on the liner, maybe a silver dollar to a quarter size.

I used to also have water sit against the top drain flange because the clamping pressure would basically make a gasket with the liner and it would seal up the under weep channel of the drain.

Disclaimer: Of course modifying things I wouldn't advise, but... maybe take it on a case by case bases to achieve proper flow.
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Unread 12-17-2019, 07:13 PM   #9
patssle
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Thanks for the feedback y'all! I did another water test today and decided just to play it safe and re-do the mud bed. There was too much on the plastic.

On another note...this stuff comes up so easy with a hammer drill!
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Unread 12-17-2019, 07:41 PM   #10
jadnashua
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Your next one will go faster and likely turn out better.
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Unread 12-25-2019, 07:40 PM   #11
patssle
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Curb building

I have my curb structure built with the liner and lath installed ready for the mud/mortar. I plan on using Quikrete Type S Mason Mix which I've read on this great website that it is a good option.

1. As this is my first time doing this I'm going to have 2 boards on each side cut to proper height (with extra outside height for pitch) (a miter cut on the inside for the floor pitch) that I can pack in the mix then level off on the top. How long can/should I keep the boards there without pulling them off and ruining the curb? Nor having them stuck to the curb.

2. With a 60" long curb and about avg 3.5" width/height and aiming for a 3/4" thickness - is one bag enough for this? Quikrete has no volume amount on their documents.

Thanks!
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Unread 12-25-2019, 08:03 PM   #12
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Patric, please keep all your project questions on one thread so folks can see what you're working on and what's been previously asked and answered. A moderator can give it a more generic title any time you'd like to suggest one.

1. Depends upon how you treat the form prior to placing it. I don't recommend you use forms for building the sides of a curb, but I suppose you can. I'd recommend oiling the wood forms before placing your fat mud so they don't tend to stick to the mortar and tear it off the curb when removing the forms. Tapping along the full length of the form with a small pounder before removing it can also help it release cleanly.

2. Depends upon how large is the bag, eh? You indicate, by my calculation, use of less than a third of a cubic foot and any 50 or 60 pound bag is gonna contain more than that.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-25-2019, 08:16 PM   #13
patssle
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Gotcha...will do. Yeah the bag size does matter! Haha...the typical 80 lbs bag from Home Depot. So I should be good then.

With forms I know the curb will come out exactly as measured and leveled with a pitch. I'm not skilled at molding things by hand. Are you tapping them off after the curb has dried? Don't remove while the curb is still fresh and wet?
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Unread 12-25-2019, 08:20 PM   #14
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1. I use boards all the time but I usually lay one on top first (weigh it down, no nails or screws) and mud the inside and outside, let it set a while and then place boards against the set mud, clamp them in place with bar clamps and mud the top. But, the way you're doing it will work fine. The Mason mix will work fine, just don't mix it too runny. I just hope you didn't nail the board to the inside of the curb.

2. 1 bag will easily do the top, not sure if it'll do the inside and outside too. Best to get another bag before you start. Like Cx says, best to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Well, someone said that.
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Unread 12-25-2019, 08:24 PM   #15
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Patrick, I'd let the mud firm up at least a few hours or you'll ruin it.
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