Jim’s Global Warming Thread

[HS345]

Originally Posted by Jeff

There is room for debate on the friendliness of alternative energy. But we could make considerable cuts by just being smarter about our consumption. We don't all need pickups the size of small countries. We could adjust our thermostats just a little. Turn the water heater down a few degrees. Don't light up the whole word at night. We could drive slower , not 55, I remember those days, but maybe just 5 less that we do now. Put doors on the freezers in the stores. A lot of other things that individually are tiny, would add up to at least start.

I'm all for all of these measures, but not by law. Most of us do our bit to conserve resources, if for no other reason than to save money.

I don't know of any stores that don't have doors on their freezers. Is that a problem in Tucson? I haven't been there in years. I always make a point to shut any doors on refrigeration or freezer units at the store when I encounter them ajar.

The charts and graphs I have been seeing suggest to me that we have perhaps pushed things to the point where equilibrium can't be maintained, and it may be hard to get it back.

The problem with many of those charts and graphs is, they simply aren't accurate. Many of the sensors for measuring surface temperatures are poorly placed near artificial heat sources. Is this by accident? I doubt it, or it would have been fixed by now.

From 2015: https://www.foxnews.com/science/u-s-...es-critics-say

From a year ago: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...-96-corrupted/

[jadnashua]

FWIW, both Fox News and Breitbart, IMHO, tend to slant their stories a bit too much for me. I tend to rely more on industry scholars, NOAA, and Academics, that hopefully, don't have a political viewpoint to uphold.

We have fairly reliable weather history data from about 1850. We can infer some fairly reliable results for things like CO2 levels from ice cores, and we have some of those that go back over 600K years.

Given the history we do have, the last 20-years have really taken off into record setting extremes. We've had over 500 consecutive months of warmer temperatures versus the last century. The direction is progressively higher, but there are lots of people that either ignore that, or don't believe it outright.

This past June was the hottest since records were being kept worldwide, and July is likely to exceed it. I think it was Phoenix that had a low last week of 97F overnight...glad I'm not anywhere near there! This is typically a hot time in the US SW, but so many records have been set, it's scary. A wide-spread power glitch could end up killing lots of people and livestock. The high water temperatures have already killed significant amounts of sea life, and bleaching the coral means a huge nursery may collapse.

Many farmers in NH where I live have lost a huge amount of their crops because the fields are submerged...we've had a LOT more rain, and faster, than normal. Now, NH doesn't feed the country like say some places out west (CA, AZ, etc.), but it does help the local economy with quality, seasonal vegetables normally. Prices and availability are changing as a result. Lots of roads still impassable because they were washed away during the heavy rains the last couple of weeks here.

[Mathman]

Florida, which is known for cool summers and balmy winters have lots of open coolers in the stores. Cheese, yogurts, eggs and more is displayed in an open cooler. But, every bit of cooling that goes out in store and then outdoors helps keep the planet cooler! /sarcasm.

[VapourSnow]

Regarding the claim that sensors for measuring surface temperatures are poorly placed near artificial heat sources, could I ask for a reference to a report that has that analysis please?

I ask, as the links on Breitbart all seem to lead to a 404 page missing error?

[jadnashua]

The Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC) is what keeps much of northern Europe and northeastern US climates a bit more temperate. It is driven by the hot, salty water from the tropics going north along the coast and the cold, dense water from the Arctic moving south around Greenland. The glacial melting on Greenland results in less dense, fresh water disrupting some of the driving forces on that circulation.

A study, looking at the records starting in 1850 which is the beginning of somewhat comprehensive information tells us that the AMOC is slowing down. Previous studies implied that it stopping wasn't a likelihood before the end of the century, but this current study implies that may not be the case as new information is obtained and models improve. They indicate that the AMOC could fall apart as early as 2025, but is almost certain by 2095 unless we do something to lower the CO2 contribution to the atmosphere.

This would radically affect the world's climate, with serious consequences for both the NE USA and northern Europe, especially the UK and Ireland which because of their latitude, would normally be a lot cooler if the AMOC wasn't functional. It would affect the normal precipitation across a vast area, putting some areas into more desert like conditions, and others getting much colder while moving where precipitation occurs today.

Time will tell, and if the worst-case scenario occurs, all too soon. Recent studies have found that the Greenland ice cap is melting in more ways than we realized, part of which is that as surface meltwater falls through cracks in the glacier, it literally heats up enough to melt them from the bottom up...a huge source of additional melting that was not known until recently which is forcing updates to the models. That additional meltwater also lubricates the glaciers so they can move faster towards the sea, compounding the problem.

Note that rain was observed on some glaciers for the first time since monitoring began last year in Greenland...prior to that, it had remained too cold for rain to occur. The water pools (and later ice rather than snow) on top of the glaciers absorb much more heat energy than the white snow which would reflect that energy back into space and that is also leading to more melting.

[jadnashua]

Today marks the 25th day of temperatures in Phoenix of at least 110F...I lived in El Paso for a while and thought it was hot...Phoenix is in a whole different class!

This heat wave is affecting not only the US, but parts of Europe and Asia. Their frequency, duration, and intensity are unlike anything we've seen before.

[Davy]

I replaced a shower for some folks in Dallas last summer. These people kept their thermostat on 70 around the clock. Most of the lights were left on all the time. While we were there working, they left to go to Galveston for a week and everything stayed on as they went out the door. We would come back the next morning and everything was just as we left it. Although we did have a key to lock the front door, all the lights were still on and the A/C was still on 70. After a day or so I did start turning off lights as we headed out. It bugged me leaving them on.

[jadnashua]

FWIW, my electric rates are high enough so that I at least try to shut things off when not needed. If I'm going to be away for a day or more, I'll change my thermostat, but in the summer, even if the air temperature can recover with the a/c, if everything has gotten heat soaked, doing something like sitting on the couch or laying in the bed, those can still be hot for ages. Plus, it takes a while to drop the humidity levels to a comfortable level, so mine usually stays at a fixed value, but it's higher than 70 in the summer!

Phoenix continues to bake...don't know how people that work outside can handle it.

[jadnashua]

We have several satellites that can measure the light reflecting off of the oceans. In the last 20 years, they have measured 56% of the oceans have turned green we think because of changes in phytoplankton. This is evident more in the tropics that the cooler temperate zones. This was predicted by climate models, but is now evident from scans. Changes in the quality, quantity, and variety of those phytoplankton have not been studied but given the aquatic food chain, one might expect the balance is off. What the effect will be, right now we do not know, but is one more piece of evidence things are changing. The only thing that matches up with the models is the increase of CO2, anthropomorphic (manmade) change.

[Davy]

I had a 13x13 canopy a few years ago that we would open up and work under. Plus, I have a big fan that helps move the air. I never did make or buy any weights for the canopy legs and it only took one windy day for it to fly like a kite and crash down to earth. I'm seeing more and more of them and it does help. I wish I would have taken better care of the one I had.

[jadnashua]

It's the middle of winter in the southern hemisphere but the areas covered by sea ice are short by over two million square kilometers, bigger that the area of Mexico from last year.

Sea ice doesn't directly affect sea levels, but do tend to protect the edges of glacial ice from wave action. Plus, open ocean absorbs versus reflects solar energy, making the ocean warmer causing more to melt and making it harder to form more ice. The melting of glacial ice dilutes the salinity which should make ice formation easier but it's not for some reason. The fear is by breaking the balance we do not know all of the consequences. We may soon find out. Lots of interconnected processes we don't understand.

[jadnashua]

There are things people do out of ignorance, spite, arrogance, peer pressure, and other reasons. Some things lend themselves to implementing laws to put a bit more emphasis on what needs to be done in a certain manner.

We can argue about the scope and intent of laws, but we are a democracy...the majority rules. FWIW, the US has one of the worst percentage turnout rates in the world for our elections, especially if it is a local one. So, while the true majority may not agree with the results, they have only themselves to blame if something happens they don't agree with...it's important to be an educated voter, and actually cast your vote after researching the alternatives.

To accomplish that, you need to also do some research into what may be ulterior motives some professed 'experts' may be saying. One thing comes to mind...the tobacco industry knew for decades that smoking was dangerous, but because it's a huge, profitable industry, they suppressed that knowledge. The same can be said about the oil industry and others, if you read between the lines.

[HS345]

We are NOT a democracy, we are a representative republic. We are not a tyranny of the majority. Where do you people get this stuff?

[jadnashua]

It's important to scrutinize the people we choose to represent us. Those are chosen through votes, the majority wins. Don't like that, next time, vote for someone else. Those representatives then vote, and the majority wins.

[Autoplay]

Off tangent regarding weather with this thread……the lobbyist play a monetary part in the creation/enactment of policies,and what the ‘majority” live with.

Civilizations have been “conformed” within their arenas of play,during times of historical written literature,and I’m sure prior(I.E. surivival of the fittest).

Walking a dog is many things,including a system of control. Lots of ways of looking at things,depending on what side of the fence you live upon.

Poof!