using a kerdi drain in a remodel

[BrendaS1]

I am doing a master bath remodel, and I want to install a steam generator for the shower. When I demo my existing tiled shower, I assume there is concrete under the floor tile with a drain pan? I wanted to use the Kerdi membrane but was told today from someone at Schluter that I have to use the Kerdi drain with the membrane. I don't mind buying a Kerdi drain, but does that mean I have to tear up all of the existing concrete? I have had no structural or leaking issues so I hate to "fix something that's not broke". At the same time, I want everything to be leak free, water and vapor proof. Schluter gave me the field rep name/number in my area and I have left a message.

[Brian@BC contracting]

Hi Brends,im right in the middle of another steam room install with kerdi in Minnesota. The others on the forum will advise to break out your old drain/concrete area around,rough in new p trap if needed for the appropriate kerdi drain height,dry pack mortar in the busted out concrete area. Then apply kerdi membraine on shower pan floor per schluter specs,install drain,then tile floor. What brand generator are you running with this remodel. I use steam mist,and amerac,(also labeled under jacuzzi).This drain is slick.Its also my first kerdi system install... awesome!!!

P.S. My area schluter rep is walcro in bloomington,or eagan if you are in the cities. good luck, Brian

[jadnashua]

In removing the original drain, you'll likely break enough where you might as well make a new pan. I suppose if you were really careful, you might get away with leaving some of it.

[Brian@BC contracting]

Plus one on that.I left that part out/forgot.Another good option with minimal damage would be to rent a hilti mini chisil hammer.I removed about 100sf of small mesh tiles in about 20 minutes with minimal damage to the underlayment (concrete slab). You will have to most likely skimcoat the existing pan however before installing the kerdi,etc over it. Lemme know if you havent bought your steam generator yet as im farmiliar with ins and out of most major manufacturers... Good luck! Brian

[BrendaS1]

Thanks for the replies. I have not heard back from the Schluter rep yet about the drain. I already bought a steam generator, Kohler model 1733 Fast Response 9kw with control kit model 1647-PC-BN. The control kit does have a button to flush/clean the unit and temperature control. I think Thermasol actually makes these for Kohler? Hopefully it will be ok, I already have the unit.

[Brian@BC contracting]

Hi Brenda... Good choice on your generator.9kw unit,huh?. how many cubic feet is your room? LxWxH. Also,the auto flush is a great feature if you are with well water or are anywhere over 10 grains hardness in your water supply.Temp control on a steam control is manditory.Anyone who doesnt buy that is a crack smoker . Where are you located?

Good luck, Brian

[BrendaS1]

My shower has a few weird angles, but I approximate the cubic square footage to be about 106. Kohler specs say the 7kw version is rated for up to 112 and the 9kw was rated 113+ so I decided to get the 9kw. I am taking a chance the thing may put out too much steam for the shower size, but I would prefer that rather than not enough. Also, the shower has one exterior wall and above the ceiling is unheated attic space. I thought in the cold MN winters it would be better to go up a size up. I guess I will find out. I'm in Andover.

[Brian@BC contracting]

Hi Brenda... Kohlers specs are pretty conservative for generator sizing.As long as your controllers inside the room have a temp sensor,you will be fine.If you do not,my fears with a 9kw unit is that it will heat up too fast and effect your ability to be in the room more than say 10-15 minutes at a time as the steam would just keeping spiking upward to it maximum potential of around 125-135 degrees. My current build is around 160 cubic feet,and im running a steamist dual kilawat 7.7/9kw generator with temp controls.Best to buy one size up.I am also on an exterior wall,but below frost line(basement),well insulated,and with glass block window with a vent i installed. So,ill check on the controllers you purchased before you install as keeping the steam at a metered rate is crutial in my opinion for maximum enjoyment. Ever notice the health clubs keep there steam room around 120 degrees?...Too hot for me to be able to stand it for more than 5-10 minutes. I also installed some LED light therapy in my steam room under my better bench suspended corner seat as down lighting.This was by far the best bang for the buck on this build at less than a hundred bucks!! Check em out at micolight.com . I bought the led 72 in red,green,blue. Does your estuschion have aroma therapy channel on it to incorporate e oils into the room?.

Brian

[BrendaS1]

I looked at the user guide for the control kit and it says it has a temperature control that you can adjust so I assume it will shut off when it reaches that temperature and start up if it goes below it? I didn't buy any LED lights, but I did get a vapor proof light at www.steamsaunabath.com the cora luminaire. It was expensive but it is supposed to be vapor proof versus a regular shower light. I am doing a corner seat too, but have not decided how to do it yet. Did you slope the ceiling? I know it's code, but it seems most things I've read it's about 50/50, half are for it and the other half against. I don't think I am going to use a slope just because of design, I have a recessed light, two flush bose marine speakers and a rainfall shower head all in the ceiling and I don't see someone being in there long enough for it to be that big of a deal, they say it takes 45 minutes for drops to form and actually start falling. I have a friend who has a built in steam shower and the ceiling is not sloped and once in awhile a little drop but not a problem.

[Brian@BC contracting]

Ok,youre good to go on the control unit then. Sloped ceiling...Ive had them both ways.Frankly,i used my first stem room almost everyday for 2.5 years on a flat,non sloped ceiling and can count on both hands how many times i had a drop of water hit my head.On this one,i did 1/4 inch slope per foot away from the door pitching downward towards the exterior wall where there is glass block w/vent.IMO,if i were to go say an inch to 2 inches per foot,it would have (a),looked horrible asthestically,and (b),covered up the top coarse of my glass block window cutting down light by a third.On the vapor proof light...good idea,but EXPENSIVE!! What i do is 100% silicone around my durock cut the outer ring of the can.then apply my ceiling,then silicone again.Then i go a step further and silicone the inside of a standard shower trim ring with a small bead of silicone again as to not allow any vapor up into the can housing (airtight halo brand 6 incher recessed. I may even put another small bead along the trim ring outside edge where it meets the tiles as the clear wont be detectable. 9kw is overkill imo on that sized room. 6 or 7 woulda done the job,even on the exterior wall. But for a few hundred extra,it doesnt hurt to have the added power output...good job there. Back to the ceiling slope, when i use steam rooms over in europe,rarely are they sloped in any of the numerous clubs ive been.Getting hit on the head with a water drop is so trivial compared to the benefits you will find in having a steam room in your home.It has,and will be my favorite room in the house!! On the bench you speak of,i used better bench's 30 inch corner bench.I find it to be too small after the finished tile work is installed.I will sit at an angle where my shoulders are squared to a wall versus sitting head on at an angle as it rolls your shoulders forward which i find uncomfortable.If i did it again,i would rip a 2x4 and face it to get an extra 1.5 inches out of it,then wrap it in kerdi.Are you installing this shower yourself,or did you hire someone? Good luck with the project, Brian

[BrendaS1]

I have a tile guy I have worked with in the past on another remodel, and other tile projects. He will do the demo, the kerdi, construction and tile and he has a master plumber he works with and an electrician. He has not done a steam shower before, but he is willing to learn. I have been doing most of the research myself. I thought I had most everything figured out until the drain issue. It seems like overkill to tear up the concrete to me, but I am not a plumber or a kerdi/tile installer. I worry if you tear up the concrete you may cause more problems than you are solving. I find it hard to understand if there is a shower there now with a drain pan that goes up the sides of the walls, and no leak problems, why isn't there a way to kerdi everything (including using kerdi over the top of the existing drain pan on walls and floor) without switching out the drain? Even if some water or vapor escape around the actual drain area won't it eventually drain down again, or would it be able to go across the floor and up the wall? I understand if you were building new, you would use the kerdi drain and seal it to the flange on the drain, but in a remodel? Maybe I just don't understand drains/pans. I still have not heard from the Schluter rep.

[Brian@BC contracting]

Brenda...I would call schluter direct! Anyone that answers there has a great knowledge of their complete product line its almost cult like scary. Their customer support is second to none.On that drain,you are not tearing into the complete floor to the edges of the framing,so the area you will be breaking into will be as wide as you need be to make the proper rough in height for your existing drain line to connect schluters kerdi drain. If it were me,id take out that old mud pan,buy a schluter pre pitched drain for the size of your room,and kerdi over that after the pan is installed.I think you can buy the largest pan they carry,a 72x72,for less than 150 dollars,and it will be about a wash after you pay someone to modify you existing mudpan via skimming,etc. Break that drain opening out though!! Whos doing your custom steam room door?. I got a lead on a company here in town with super pricing and great service.

[BrendaS1]

I have used NorthStarGlass in Coon Rapids in the past for some custom mirror work and they have been reasonably priced. I was reading that if you don't have a transom to dry out the shower, it would be good to get a glass door that swings both in and out so you can leave the door open inwards to let it dry completely after use to prevent mold. The way the door is now, the top of the door frame is well below the ceiling and my husband has hit his head on it a few times, so I don't want a transom, I want the door to go all the way to the ceiling (only 85"H). I have not checked with them yet to see if they carry a door like that. I also bought a panasonic exhaust fan that I plan to install on the ceiling right outside the shower door, it is 300cfm. I am going to call Schluter again today, I have called them a few times before and most everyone was very helpful. Now that this drain issue has come up, the last two times I called they referred me to the local rep who I left a message for with no response.

[Brian@BC contracting]

Yes,you can get door hinge to swing in and out.Forget about the transum idea. Boy,you buy everything BIG. a 300 cfm fan. I just hope for your sake it is no more than 1.5 sones for noise levels. My door,non bi-swinging glass with chrome plated stainless,1/4 inch glass and a drill through glass d pul handle installed for 650. 2 weeks lead time.

[BrendaS1]

As my husband says, "GO BIG OR GO HOME!"
The model is Panasonic # FV-30VQ3 it is 290cfm to be exact and 2 sones. It is named "whisper quiet" and they say in the description you may not know it's on, I don't know that I believe that, but I was more concerned about getting rid of the moisture to dry the thing out and not causing damage to my bathroom ceiling or walls. Right now I have a cool decorative ceiling exhaust fan that looks like a ceiling light (it is a light too) and it's 80cfm and it doesn't even keep up with all of the steam from my regular shower now. I am also going to get rid of the popcorn ceiling in my bathroom and use some type of waterproof primer on everything and repaint the ceiling and walls. I take it back, the schluter rep left me a message yesterday at 430pm when I was gone but I didn't get it until this morning. Now I guess we are playing phone tag.