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Unread 11-16-2020, 12:12 PM   #16
Pyohe
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After researching the forum, I found a comment from CX.

My tile is 12" x 24" for the floor so this caught my attention. My floor MUST be within these guidelines.

"The requirement for tiles with any side longer than 15 inches is no deviation from intended plane of more than 1/8th-inch in ten feet nor 1/16th-inch in two feet. A mortar bed (deck mud) and SLC are about the only ways to reasonably achieve that flatness and will also allow you to more precisely set the finished level."

What is SLC? Self-Leveling Concrete?

What is bonding?


Will the new concrete need a membrane on the floor? Will the new concrete stick to the old? The original floor was concrete, thinset, and tile, but that was somewhere between 1966 and 1985. Things have changed since then.
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Unread 11-16-2020, 12:16 PM   #17
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1. You want to use deck mud in that application. If you'll go to the Shower Construction thread in our Liberry you'll find a thread with an article all about making deck mud. Perfect choice for your application. You can make it the precise height for your tiles to be in plane with adjacent flooring and you can make it very, very flat. It's also amongst the most inexpensive of materials used in the ceramic tile industry while also being the very best for your application.

You will place it all in one operation and it will be ready for tile the following day. I would recommend you go no further than removal of your current floor tile before finishing the shower portion of the project and anything else you plan to do to the walls or ceiling.

2. Depends upon how you plan to make your mud. Read the article from the Liberry and decide how you wanna make yours. Then just do the math. If you use bagged materials, keep in mind that an 80 pound bag of Sand Topping Mix or similar is about 2/3rds of a cubic foot.

3. I would not predicate my floor construction on facilitating the removal of the tub at some later date. Removing tubs is always a PITA and having it mudded in might make that a bit worse. Optimal solution would be to remove the tub, place your mud bed over the entire floor, then set the tub at that level. You'll still be tiled in, but not so much. My recommendation is for you not to pay any attention to that at all unless the contour of the bottom of the tub makes it problematic for some reason.

4. There are no horizontal studs. Terminology issue. The wood I think you're referring to is the sole plate, or bottom plate, or similar, depending upon what part of the country you learned residential framing.

Yes, you can add blocking between the studs to facilitate nailing of your wallboard or you can install your wallboard before you place your deck mud.

5. There will be no concrete involved aside from the current SOG. You'll screed (shape using a straight-edge of some sort) your packed deck mud to exactly the right height for your tile installation. The industry thickness requirement for thinset mortar is a minimum of 3/32nds of an inch after the tile is set. If you're gonna make a serious effort to create a perfect plane with your adjacent flooring you should do a test using your tile, your trowel, and your technique and determine exactly the level your need for your mud bed.

6. You don't really want the mud hard against any vertical surface. Some foam SilSeal from the insulation area of your local home center is a good material to staple all around your mud placement area. You can trim it down after the mud is placed.

7. Please, please stop asking your plumber for advice on anything but plumbing. And in the case of your plumber, perhaps not even that. His recommendation for raising the floor could scarcely be any worse.

See Davy's post #10 above.

8. See #1.

[Edit] I see you've slipped in another post while I was typing.

No, you will not use a membrane of any kind on the SOG before placing your mud bed. You will mix a slurry of either Portland cement or thinset mortar and spread that on your concrete before placing your deck mud while the slurry is still wet. This is referred to as a "bonded mud bed."

SLC is Self Leveling Cement, or Compound. The name is a bit misleading. The material will seek level in thicker applications, but it requires some help in actually finishing as a flat and level floor. It's not as simple to place as you might suspect. There is information on that in our Liberry as well. It's also much more expensive than deck mud.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Last edited by cx; 11-16-2020 at 12:25 PM.
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Unread 11-16-2020, 12:24 PM   #18
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Since the tile are on concrete, could a bonded mudbed be used without removing the existing tile? Maybe with some EcoPrim grip then some thinset?
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Unread 11-16-2020, 12:45 PM   #19
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You can plug the drain on your tub and fill it with water. In fact, you should do this to test it. Fill it all the way up to the overflow and let it run down the overflow for a bit.

You can remove the cap on the bottom outlet so you can fill the tub from right there. Just don't turn the water on too strongly in the beginning.

Take a straight edge and figure out how flat your floor is. If it's flat then you could build up your floor with a foam backer board like Wedi board. This would also provide the benefit of a bit of insulation over your concrete floor.

It would have been nice to build up the floor before the tub went in though. It's not ideal to build up an inch past the tub apron.

Finally, on your 17-inch spacing, you can put in a cross block in between them. I usually put them every 30-36 inches and on every backer board seam when I am doing this.
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Unread 11-16-2020, 02:37 PM   #20
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Thanks, Tiger... Wow, that just sounded wrong! Thanks, Tiger Mountain Tile, Inc....much better! I can pour a half 5 gallon bucket of water to test the drain, but I know nothing about plumbing to know how to open the lines without a faucet. Maybe I can pour water on top of the overflow to check for leaks. Probably not as effective as submerging the overflow though.

The plumber was supposed to check for leaks per the manufacturer's instructions BEFORE the tub was set in mortar, but he said there was no need. He was also the one who said it was better to set the tub BEFORE raising the floor. Oh well, it is done now.


Jadnashua, I don't know exactly what a bonded (or unbonded??) mudbed is, but I will look in "the liberry" like CX suggested. It would sure save me a lot of time if I could tile over the tile. I am dreading this job.

CX, thanks. I will check out the deck mud tutorial. So, it can't go on top of the old tiles.

2. I thought dry bags was all I could use. The ready mixed stuff was different stuff. Makes only 2/3 cf with 1 bag? I will need eleventy-nine bazillion bags. Making me do math in my retirement!!!

4. Terminology/vocabulary- I knew it was called something, but I didn't know what it was called.

5. Terminology again! I assumed thinset was concrete....I have screed a sidewalk before, but not a floor. This may be beyond my level of incompetency.

"A minimum of 3/32nds of an inch after the tile is set." After? Does that mean the thinset AND the tile has a combined minimum thickness of 3/32"? No, that can't be right because my tile is 5/16" or 10/32". Maybe it means 10/32" + 3/32" = 13/32" combined total?

7. I know...we have gone through so many contractors who don't know what they are talking about....at least I will read and learn about doing something correctly even if they won't. It seems like everyone is sort of self-taught around here. Never had this problem with contractors until we moved here. In the large cities a plumber was a plumber and a tile guy was a tile guy...and nothing else. He had told me he does plumbing, shower floor and wall tile, drywall, and any construction needed. Before he left, I overheard him talking to my electrician about how they were both getting into drywall, texturing, and other construction work....red flag...getting into? Too late, tub was set.

Davy's comment? Which one? Remove the toilet flange before building up the floor? Or tile over the old tile but rough up the surface using rough sand paper to help the new tiles bond.

8. No mud should be touching vertical walls or the tub apron, so drywall should be done after I build up the floor. Protect the tub apron and wood with foam SilSeal. Drywall would suck up the moisture if it touched wet concrete, I guess.

I think I got confused reading about Kerdi Ditra floor membrane.

"You will mix a slurry of either Portland cement or thinset mortar and spread that on your concrete before placing your deck mud while the slurry is still wet. This is referred to as a "bonded mud bed."" So this means one concrete surface will be sticking to the next concrete (mortar) surfaces and that means bonding. The deck mud will be thick and the slurry will be thin.


I have to disagree with your ending signature/comment...

"My opinion; worth price charged." Nope, your opinions are definitely priceless to me! And everyone else's opinions too.

I feel like I am getting somewhere. I can listen to what contractors are saying, then accept or reject their bids based on what I am learning here.

I talked to two tile guys today, and none of them knew what all of you have suggested so I will not be calling them back. One said to use fiber board and the other said Hardie backerboard. Isn't Hardieboard more like drywall and worse than using Durock. My local lumberyard only carries fiber backerboard so that may be why they say they would use that.

Thank you all, again.
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Unread 11-17-2020, 10:21 AM   #21
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You can drywall whenever you want. You just need to put the foam sill seal in between the mud (if that's even the route that you are going) and whatever it comes up next to. It's the flexible gap that you need and that's what the foam gets you.

For thinset, you're pretty safe figuring your tile + 1/8 inch. You can figure 3/16" if you want. That will get you in the ballpark for hitting the elevation that you want to hit.

So, if your tile + 1/8 inch of mortar gets you to about 1/2 inch thick then you'll have to figure out how you are going to build up the remaining 1/2-5/8 inch to level out with the wood in the doorway.

You can install 1/2 inch foam board, like Wedi board or Kerdi board, over the marble. You can't use Hardibacker or cement board because those require nails along with mortar to be installed correctly.

You can also use a self-leveling compound.

Or you can remove the marble and do a mortar bed or self-leveling.

That's pretty much your options that I can think of unless you want to put a transition in the doorway.
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Unread 11-23-2020, 10:17 AM   #22
Pyohe
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Thank you.
" You just need to put the foam sill seal in between the mud (if that's even the route that you are going) and whatever it comes up next to. It's the flexible gap that you need and that's what the foam gets you."

Are you talking about the floor or the drywall? What is foam sill seal?

I thought Kerdi board could not be used, but Wedi could. I need to reread about the Kerdi boards.
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Unread 11-23-2020, 10:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyohe
Are you talking about the floor or the drywall? What is foam sill seal?
Floor to wall and/or vertical surface. Sill seal is just a foam band used to create a damn in this instance so that the mud or SLC doesn't touch the surrounding structures, tub, etc. Like this picture attached. Be sure to account for any other things like floor vents, toilet drain, doorway opening.
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Unread 11-24-2020, 07:57 AM   #24
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Sill seal

If it were me, I would drywall first then do the floor but either way is perfectly acceptable.
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Unread 11-25-2020, 12:38 PM   #25
Pyohe
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Thank you both. That is a great product.

I honestly don't think we can do the concrete work ourselves. We can't seem to find contractors locally who do things correctly. We have never been people who DIY, but we have had to learn.

We just paid $1800.00 to a plumber to install our new tub and he refused to read the instructions. He threw them over his shoulder when I gave them to him. Now, the flange is broken because he did not follow the directions. It broke a couple of days after he left, and he said it must have been our fault. He said we must have bumped a wall stud. Nope. $800.00 tub now has to be replaced, and we have to pay someone else to install a new one, and they or may not do it correctly.

I need someone who lives in Southeastern Oklahoma who knows what they are doing and will backup their work. Any takers?
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Unread 11-25-2020, 01:27 PM   #26
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If you have good documentation of the problem, Patti, your Court of Small Claims might be a worthwhile approach to getting him to pay for your new tub and refund what he charged you to install the previous one.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-26-2020, 10:05 AM   #27
Pyohe
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Thanks, CX.
I contacted the tub manufacturer to ask how to fix the flanges, and I sent pictures. They sent a new tub! I was not expecting that since it was probably the plumber's fault since he didn't follow the instructions. What is it with people not wanting to read instructions? It can't take that long.
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Unread 12-26-2020, 10:19 AM   #28
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That's some uncommonly good customer service, Patti. You might wanna post the brand of your tub here and give them some well deserved publicity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patti
What is it with people not wanting to read instructions? It can't take that long.
We (TYW) have spent truckloads of type over the yeas trying to convince folks to do just that, even 'splaining to the more macho visitors that it's even OK to read the instructions before trying to install the product. Unfortunately, plumbers are not inclined to visit our site and are not likely to pay heed if they did.

Alas! We try.
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Unread 02-07-2021, 01:00 PM   #29
Pyohe
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Going to use Wedi panels

Months later, and my replacement tub and shower walls are still not installed. It is such a pain to get things done here.

I have purchased Wedi 1/2" panels because it seems like they are the easiest to install.

My questions...
1. Should there be anything installed under the Wedi? The back wall of the tub/shower wall (5 ft) and 6" deep pony wall continues on about 4.5 ft to the corner of the bathroom. We have not drywalled that 4.5 ft section yet, but if we put Durock on the shower section, the rest of that wall will need to be the same total thickness.

2. Currently, there are only 16" o.c. studs. (= 407 mm) Wedi instructions...

"Minimum required thickness of Wedi should be 20 mm (0.787") for 400 - 600 mm."

Then, instructions show a picture with 12.5mm Wedi used in 450 mm (17.7" o.c.) studs.
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Unread 02-07-2021, 01:02 PM   #30
Pyohe
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Missed a picture...

So can 1/2" Wedi be used or do I need 3/4" Wedi? Thanks.
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