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Unread 01-31-2021, 07:21 PM   #91
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Karen, don't feel forced into anything by the tile industry recommendation of no offset of more than 33 percent of the tile dimension. That is more of a cautionary recommendation than a chiseled in ceramic rule. The tile manufacturer can recommend more or less offset, and that I would consider a maximum allowable tolerance. But the section of the ANSI standard pertaining to the offset (A108.02, 4.3.8.2) says, "If an offset of greater than 33% is specified, specifier and owner must approve a mock-up and lippage."

Once you have your tiles in hand, you, as both specifier and owner, will easily be able to determine how much of an offset you want to use with your tiles over your known substrate. It really is that simple. If you like what you see when you actually have the tiles in hand, you use any pattern you want.

1. If I understand you drawing, yes, that's a simple offset pattern.

2. No technical questions there at all. Purely customer decisions.

If you find that your tile installation is too uneven on the wall (you will have tested, yes?) for the vanity top to fit sufficiently tight against, you'll need to decide if you want to scribe and fit the top or install the top before tiling. Either will work.

It would hafta be a furniture piece I've done a couple) for me to tile the wall before installing a vanity and I'd make it look that way. If it's a cabinet, it would potentially need to have scribe strips where the sides meet the tile and I would not think that an acceptable look. You might.

All customer choices if I'm your contractor. Various price consideration might apply, but we'd first need to decide what you wanted to do.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-31-2021, 10:09 PM   #92
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Thanks CX.

I figured the pattern was simple... I don't want to drive up the cost too much.

We talked it over. While i like the 50% better, my other half likes 33%, so might as well go with that.

CX Wrote:

Quote:
2. No technical questions there at all. Purely customer decisions.
I was worried about potential leakage at the back as well as how
a thicker caulk line (if needed) might look , and what it might mean for cleaning.

It might not me an issue... as the is not THAT "bumpy"... Trying to measure the bumps on a small tile edge the highest points and lowed points on the tile surface differ by about 1/16" at most ... Enough so you can see and feel them and give the tile a stone look, but not huge... Is that likely to be and issue?

As it is not totally flat, I thought it might be an issue.

Quote:
If you find that your tile installation is too uneven on the wall (you will have tested, yes?) for the vanity top to fit sufficiently tight against, you'll need to decide if you want to scribe and fit the top or install the top before tiling. Either will work.
First are you speaking about the wall itself or the tile surface? The wall has tile on it now, so I assume the wall itself should not be an issue.

As I said the surface of the tile has surface height differences of about 1/16" at most.

When you say test it, how is that done?

When you say scribe it, do you mean cutting a slot in tile after it has been put up, so that the back edge of the vanity top can be slid into it? Sounds hard to do well!

But thinking about that, if caulking directly to teh surface of teh tile is nota good idea in this case, I agree that would look best if it needs to be done (either that or chose a different tile so th whole uses goes away... but I would rathe not!)

Quote:
It would hafta be a furniture piece I've done a couple) for me to tile the wall before installing a vanity and I'd make it look that way.
We are planning on a more expensive vanity than we really should.

I just hated the stuff we saw in the big box stores both looks and quality...

The vanity will be semi-custom. Even though the house is not in great shape and relatively inexpensive, we hope to live here until we are no longer capable of keeping it up, so we want quality that will last... and will fix up what we can now while we can...

Because of COVID we did not take any vacation last year and won't this year either, we are so putting some of that money into getting quality materials that will last... I don't know if you call it furniture but it won't be cheap!

BTW the vanity in the drawing IS the one we are taking about... I got that from the company's website where you can "build" your own and get an accurate picture.

Quote:
Various price consideration might apply, but we'd first need to decide what you wanted to do.
Right now I am trying to anticipate what issues there might be, so when it comes time to have that discussion with the contractor, I can have an educated one and make a good decision.... Won't be able to afford do overs!

Thanks for all your help,
-Karen
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Unread 01-31-2021, 11:45 PM   #93
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2a. Either/both.

b. put some tiles on the wall and put a straight edge across it.

c. No, by scribing I mean to shape the edge of the countertop to fit the profile of the wall tile. Either by cutting or grinding or similar.

d. No technical reason not to caulk the gap between top and tile. Don't consider it waterproofing, but more of an aesthetic improvement.

By furniture, Karen, I was actually talking about a furniture piece, usually antique or/and unusual, re-purposed as a vanity. Makes a very interesting statement sometimes, but presents its own additional problems. I've enjoyed the ones I've done. Nothing to do with cost or quality of the piece, just talking about the nature of the installation.

But with any cabinet made to fit against the wall I would usually prefer it to be mounted directly to the wall and tiled around. But my style of work required that I do whatever the customer wanted if it was at all feasible.

The price of the cabinet is of no concern to me at all, it's the quality that makes the difference. I've installed some very expensive junk and I've installed some very reasonably priced high quality cabinetry. And I've made some of it myself, which I would, of course, claim was very high quality.

You're only buying one small piece, so I recommend you buy exactly what you want or as close as you can get. Then figure out how to install it and your tile work to your best advantage.

And you do understand that herabouts the recommendation for avoiding do-overs is to do the work yourself, yes?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-01-2021, 09:09 PM   #94
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Hi CX,

Thanks for being patient with me and responding.

Let me tell you where I am coming from. About 15 years ago when we were having vinyl siding put on the house a contractor asked which way he should do something, but did not explain the pro's or cons of either method...

I, not having a clue about why one might be chosen over the other, chose one. Years later I realized the other way would have been better for practical reasons I had not thought of back then.

I don't want to make that type of mistake again!

CX wrote:

Quote:
b. put some tiles on the wall and put a straight edge across it.
I just did that with the existing "4X4" tile and a yard stick horizontally... And to my surprise the wall is NOT FLAT. I can see gaps along the yard stick and the wall... I never noticed that before!

Is that likely to be an issue to just tile the wall with 8 X16" tiles? When it gets tiled would the mortar help level it out? (i was reading about large format mortar)

Quote:
c. No, by scribing I mean to shape the edge of the countertop to fit the profile of the wall tile. Either by cutting or grinding or similar.
Ah... Not really practical with granite I would think!

Quote:
d. No technical reason not to caulk the gap between top and tile. Don't consider it waterproofing, but more of an aesthetic improvement.
My primary concern was long term water damage to the vanity from water leaking down the back, and secondarily looks. I thought without a backsplash, having the the flat edge of the tile on the vanity top and the joint caulked would provide both the best water protection and the smallest caulk line.

I also seemed to be caulking the the vanity top to the face of the tile on the wall would be more likely to fail and need to be thick with teh bumpy tile surface...

But if, without a backsplash, water running down the back is very unlikely to happen or cause an issue with the vanity the there would not be an issue either way.

This vanity has faux legs and meant to look like furniture , I'll attach the specs and a picture of a vanity by teh same manufacturer ... the the one we plan to get will have a different top, stain, drawer configuration and door design, but the same frame faux legs and all.

Quote:
But with any cabinet made to fit against the wall I would usually prefer it to be mounted directly to the wall and tiled around.
I am not sure what you mean by mounted as it's not a floating vanity, but it is designed to be along the wall, at least teh showroom examples we saw were along walls.

As long was we don't need to replace the vanity that would likely be best as we are also very tight for space in front of the vanity... With the current tile the distance to the wall across from the vanity is just 21.5" and this tile is thicker than the current tile.

I would have thought cutting the tile to deal with the overhang of the top and have it look good (small grout line) would be very difficult! Besides replacing the vanity if ever needed , I thought tiling behind the vanity would make that a non issue.

Quote:
But my style of work required that I do whatever the customer wanted if it was at all feasible.
I am here because I want to hear expert opinions on what is best to do so I can make decisions understanding their consequences.. and I am VERY grateful for those here sharing them ..and hope if say I am thinking of doing something stupid, someone would tell me!


Quote:
And you do understand that herabouts the recommendation for avoiding do-overs is to do the work yourself, yes?
If I thought we were capable of a project of this magnitude, we most definitely would be to save money.! .. The house a needs a lot of work!

A good bit of it is because previous owners did things themselves, did not know what they were doing and or/took short cuts....

We are not very "handy", but I am looking to learn what things I think I could tackle and get good quality results.

Again thank you and the others here for all your feedback... it really can help us a not make any big costly mistakes!

- Karen
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Unread 02-01-2021, 10:07 PM   #95
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b. Depends somewhat upon just how un-flat the wall is, Karen, but I caution you not to expect to flatten the tile surface using the bonding mortar while setting the tiles. You really want to flatten that wall before tiling.

And you'll want to make the wall where the vanity will be very plumb. That vanity appears to me to be made to look like furniture and I would want to just fasten it against the tiled wall. And to do that and have it look good, you want the wall plumb and flat.

No need to tile the entire wall behind the vanity, only enough be inside the outer dimensions of the cabinet piece.

c. While you wouldn't wanna do a lot of that onsite, some scribing of the edge of a granite top can be done by grinding. Pretty messy, but quite doable. If you make the wall really flat, I don't think it will be necessary to scribe the top to fit. The unevenness of the tile-to-top joint can probably be accommodated by careful caulking with a good flexible sealant.

d. Water leaking down the back? We'd hope there would be very little of that, now wouldn't we? A mechanical overlap of the tile would help to accommodate that, and there is no reason you couldn't do that. I trust you will not have that marble splash we see in your photo?

By mounted I meant the cabinet would be fastened to the wall. The same would be true of what I see in your photo or a "furniture piece" as I described earlier. The unit would still be fastened to the wall, one style fastened to the bare wall and tiled around, the other fastened to the wall over the tiled surface.

I understand your need to hire some or most of the work done, I was just suggesting that the very best way to have things done exactly the way you want is to be the one doing it. Second best is to find someone who will make his best effort to give you exactly what you describe and ask for.

Those someones are getting more and more difficult to find ever day, even when you're willing to pay for the work. I wish you good luck in finding yours.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-02-2021, 02:24 PM   #96
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Hi CX,

Quote:
b. Depends somewhat upon just how un-flat the wall is, Karen, but I caution you not to expect to flatten the tile surface using the bonding mortar while setting the tiles. You really want to flatten that wall before tiling.
When I put the yardstick horizontally up against the wall, it looked like there were about 1/16" inch gaps. BTW When I put put the yard stick vertically up against a wall in the hall, there were no gaps so I am pretty sure the yardstick is not warped.

Right now the lower part of the vanity wall is 4X4" tile but from the uncovered top part (and the rest of the walls in the original part of the house) it is obvious the walls are plaster.

What would need to be done to flatten it particularly considering that 8X16" tile I would like to use.




Quote:
That vanity appears to me to be made to look like furniture and I would want to just fasten it against the tiled wall. And to do that and have it look good, you want the wall plumb and flat.
May I ask why you prefer that to installing the vanity first and tiling around it? Though of course with this vanity design, the floor tile would need to be installed first in either case.

Quote:
A mechanical overlap of the tile would help to accommodate that, and there is no reason you couldn't do that.
If the tile is installed first, how could it overlap the vanity top? That could only be if the vanity and it's top are installed before the wall is tiled no?


BTW from google I found out this exact question has been asked here before by Deb R in 2005 and you were on that thread!


https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin...ad.php?t=22144

Quote:
I trust you will not have that marble splash we see in your photo?
That black top, no!!!!!

The drawing in the post on page 6 at 01-31-2021, 06:47 PM ,is what we are planning. That is as as close to exact scale as I could make for everything, including the tiles , vanity, medicine cabinet etc! (and the tiles came from pictures of the actual tile from the manufacturer)

Quote:
Those someones are getting more and more difficult to find ever day, even when you're willing to pay for the work. I wish you good luck in finding yours.
Thank you... I do worry about that...

Most likely we will be dealing with a general contractor, so if tile is not his "thing", I am not sure how to evaluate if his tile guy will be good and knowledgeable!

In the end if you can't do it yourself you have to trust somebody... The thread on bad tile jobs by some "professionals" on the board certainly makes me nervous about that.

That is part of the reason I am trying to learn how things should be done, even if we can't do them ourselves.

If there are parts we can tackle ourselves with reasonable confidence, we will.

-Karen
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Unread 02-02-2021, 03:42 PM   #97
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b. That should be flat enough to make a flat installation with your size tiles.

b1. You gotta take into consideration the disclaimer I make with most of my posts, Karen. The decision to treat the piece as furniture rather than cabinetry is purely my opinion. You wanna do yours as best suits the project supervisor, which, of course, is you.

b2. It could be done with both the cabinet against the tile and the top embedded into the tile or the top also against the tile. Easiest with it all embedded or all against the tile. Aesthetic decision.

b3. Got it.

b4. Yep, you gotta trust somebody in that regard. Hopefully your GC would have a consultation with you and the tile guy on site so you can point and gesture and draw pictures and show photos and answer questions and have the little light bulbs come on over their heads and you'll get exactly what you want. It can happen, but you'll wanna keep an eye on things.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-04-2021, 02:13 PM   #98
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New question:

Up until now I have have not thought about sanitary cove, because the tile we chose does not have that as an option.

Is it a good idea to use sanitary cove?

The existing tile uses cove (in fact there are 2 layers of cove! A top white one and under that a pink one likely from when the house was built in the 1950's that was tiled over)

As the tile we plan to use does not come with cove, if we were to use cove, we would have to find one that coordinates reasonably well with the field tile.

Googling I find some people think it is important because cleaning (particularly in corners) is much easier with it, and it is expected. (Thinking of resale value)

When I think about, as best as I can recall, every tiled bathroom I have ever been in has had cove... I think it can make a bathroom looked more finished, but finding one that goes with the field tile could be hard, and of course it would add to cost.

What are the expectations of most people with respect to cove being installed or not in tiled bathrooms these days?

Thanks,
-Karen
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Unread 02-04-2021, 07:15 PM   #99
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Where would you plan to install this "cove," Karen?
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Unread 02-04-2021, 07:57 PM   #100
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Bottom of the tiled walls to connect to the the floor ... That is what is there now. It's seems to be (or at least was?) a common practice, no?

-Karen
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Unread 02-04-2021, 08:47 PM   #101
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That would be a base molding, probably in a Glazed Wall Tile, and yes, the style was very popular, and yes, there is one style called a Sanitary Base, usually available in either 4x4" or 6x6" but I don't know that you'll find anything at all like that in the type of tile I see in your photos.

Perhaps some of the other members who are more current on what's available today can direct you toward something, but I think if you're planning to tile your walls with the tile you've shown us all the way to a tile floor, you'll just use the wall tiles you have, leave a grout joint at the wall/floor intersection and fill that with a flexible sealant to match your grout.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-05-2021, 05:55 PM   #102
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Thanks for the reply CX
Quote:
but I think if you're planning to tile your walls with the tile you've shown us all the way to a tile floor, you'll just use the wall tiles you have, leave a grout joint at the wall/floor intersection and fill that with a flexible sealant to match
your grout.
Seems like no one can offer any alternatives

The reason I brought it up was wondering if it is expected these days, thinking ahead for house resale value... being in our mid-late 60's, We figure we will have to sell in about 15 years ± 5 as we will no longer be able to take of it ...

What sealant would be best to minimize maintenance and best preserve looks?

I have been googling (and this forum comes up a lot), but it seems most say for change of plane in the bathroom the best is 100% Silicone caulk, though some try to get away with epoxy or urethane grout instead of caulk...

The advantage of grout (if it does not crack) is that eventually caulk needs to get replaced as it gets yucky, shrinks etc... But not cracking is a *BIG* if, and if it does, removing it would be a big issue.

From what I have read it seems 100% silicone caulk would last the longest and least likely to have mold or mildew issues, although more expensive than others ...

If so maybe I should specify it's use for all change of plane situations? It seems saving a (relatively) few dollars would not be worth more issues down the road.

Speaking of caulk, I sure hope the tiling for the current tub/shower combo was NOT done by a pro! I sure as heck would not what to hire that one!

There is tile on the ceiling in the alcove (and I want that for the remodel too) but it looks like instead of using grout they used caulk on the ceiling (I assume because it was easier?) and it's now coming down!
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Unread 02-06-2021, 08:21 PM   #103
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A quick question I hope someone can answer for me.

What is that short "wall" /"overhang" that comes down from the ceiling at the edge of the tub/shower alcove in the in the picture below called?

Unless there is a good reason not to, in the remodel we want to keep it. Along with the alcove walls and ceiling, we want to tile inner part of that "wall" and it's bottom. The outer edge would have a pencil boarder that continues the outline of the alcove.

When we start seeing contractors I want to use the right terminology to talk about it.

Thanks,
-Karen
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Unread 02-06-2021, 09:39 PM   #104
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Usually referred to as a fur-down, Karen. More commonly extend all the way to the back wall of the shower, but not always as you can see. I don't like them as they tend to trap moisture in that area which isn't easy to get rid of even with a properly sized and used exhaust fan.

But if you like it, no reason you can't keep it. And sometimes they contain wiring or plumbing or HVAC ductwork, but that's more common in the ones that extend to the back wall.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-21-2021, 05:25 PM   #105
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We are planning to do a mosaic accent that goes all around bathroom including in the Tub/Shower area.

Originally I wanted to avoid a Cracked glass mosaic accent because of potential issues in the shower of water ingress and mold, but we have not been able to find another accent we like as much or would go as well with the color scheme we want to use, and I have seen number of people on the web say as long it is sealed well there should not be an issue.

That accent is a combination of polished light and dark emperador marble and crackled glass squares (or rectangles - the one we want -squares- is out of stock currently but a rectangular brick brick version is available) I am including pictures.

The issue with the crackled glass surface is that it needs to be sealed BEFORE grouting everywhere, as well as afterwards - particularly for use in the shower area.

Searching the forum for crackled I found a thread that talked about crackled finish tiles (not Mosaic) and talked about submerging them in sealer to do 6 sided sealing. I would be very willing to do that on my own before having it installed, as well as doing the after installation sealing of the accent as well as the grout after grouting.

But in that same thread thread someone else said the doing that could cause an issue with the mortar being able to stick to the tile ... which I assume means there was the potential for the tile to separate from the wall

So is 6 sided sealing good idea for this mosaic? BTW after doing a bunch of reading on the web I think I want to use Stain-Proof penetrating sealer (formerly known as Dry-Treat), as from what I've read it seems to be a bit better than 511.

I have dealt with organic solvents my whole working life and know how to handle them so that does not bother me. Yes it is more expensive but have less problems long term is worth it I think

More than likely the accent mosaic tiles will need to be cut at the corners (and there will be one outer corner) with either the squares or the interlocking "bricks". The cracked glass pieces are obviously not through body and are just a layer on top of a ceramic (probably not porcelain ) piece.

When cut the installation instructions says the ends need to be sealed before grouting as well ... I assume that would need to be done by the installer or can that be done (particularly for inner corners) after it is put on the wall?

Also is this type of mosaic an issue for installing at the one outer corner, particularly as the base of the crackle pieces are white?

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-Karen
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