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Unread 05-28-2008, 12:46 AM   #1
morozgrafix
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Question Sergey's Master Bath Project - Kerdi Drain

Hello,

My name is Sergey

I've been browsing this forum for some time now and gained a lot of knowledge. I would like to thank John Bridge and everyone else here for building a great community where Pro and DIY folks can coexist in peace and exchange very valuable information.

I'm starting (at this time continuing) my master bath remodeling project and I figured that I would start my own thread in seek for advice from forum gurus.

I have gutted entire master bath and working on my jacuzzi tub at the moment. I'm making progress on my own and as of right now I don't have any questions about it. (Time will tell).

I'm planning on installing Kerdi shower and already purchased shower valves and trim manufactured by Hansgrohe. Paid a pretty penny for that, but I figured I should install good valves and not worry about problems after I cover it with tile.

I have ripped out old shower pan that was 48" wide x 32" deep and cut off old shower drain. Our house was built in 1979 and they used copper for most of the drain pipes. Shower has 2" copper pipes with cast copper (brass) connectors and joints. (sorry if I'm using wrong terminology here, I'm somewhat of a newbie when it comes to plumbing and English is my 2nd language).

I'm planning on making shower a little bigger I would like to make it 48" x 40". I would need to move that drain 3" closer to entryway (curb side). Its not a big deal for me as I have moved similar setup for the tub installation. Also there is plenty support with 16" high joist beams (some of them doubled up next to each other) and I will also throw another 48" x 40" piece of plywood on top to reinforce it.

Now to my main questions:

I went to Lowe's and picked up a couple of options to connect Kerdi Drain ABS version (which I haven't ordered yet) to that copper.


Here are 2 options that I can possibly use.

Option 1: 2" cast copper adapter (Nibco 804 DWV Adapter C x M – Cast - Page 29 of large PDF catalog here http://www.nibco.com/assets/coppercat.pdf) with male thread soldered on to copper pipe (after its moved and cut to proper height) and 2" ABS connector with female threads screwed on top of it and glued to Kerdi Drain (and or piece of 2" ABS that's connected to Kerdi Drain)

Option 2: "Fernco" type flexible coupling designed to connect 2" CI/Plastic/Copper/Steel to 1 1/2" CI/Plastic/Copper Steel. I have tried to put 1 1/2" end on the copper pipe and it does fit, but its a very tight fit. (had to use some soapy water to fit it on copper pipe). 2" end just seems way too big for copper pipe, but would work out just fine on the 2" ABS.

And Option 3 (just thought about a little more):
Use Option 1 connectors on horizontal piece of pipe and install all ABS P trap all the way up to Kerdi Drain. Not sure if I want to go that route.

So now my question is which option to choose? I'm leaning towards Option 1 since it seems more appropriate and fit would be perfect. Can I connect cast copper with ABS plastic that way??? Need help from experienced people.


Overall look at the shower (well not that much left)


2" Copper drain pipe


Closeup of the drain pipe


Option 1 fittings on the left
Option 2 fitting on the right
Part of the old shower drain in the back


Dry fit of Option 1


Semidry fit of Option 2

Thank you,
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Last edited by morozgrafix; 06-03-2008 at 10:47 AM.
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Unread 05-28-2008, 07:56 AM   #2
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I'll say either way will work just fine, 1, 2, or 3. If you need to move the drain 3 inches, converting the trap to plastic as in option 3 might be easier.

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Unread 05-28-2008, 10:34 AM   #3
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Thanks Mike, I may end up going with Option 1, it just looks cleaner and I think threaded connection would be more secure. I just wasn't sure if connecting cast copper (brass) thread with ABS plastic thread was OK.
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Unread 05-28-2008, 05:19 PM   #4
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Privet Sergey,
Zhelayu tebe uspeha v tvoih delah
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Unread 05-28-2008, 08:33 PM   #5
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Spasibo Art.

P.S. For non russian speakers Art just wished me luck with project.
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Unread 05-28-2008, 08:48 PM   #6
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Segey, welcome to the forum. I would have typed that in Russian but probably would have ended up saying something bad.

Good luck on your project!
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Unread 05-28-2008, 09:25 PM   #7
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добро пожаловать в форум
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Unread 05-28-2008, 09:32 PM   #8
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Thanks Marge and Brian. Project is coming along and I will be posting progress pictures and updates. And of course ask more questions here.

Thank you for making me feel welcome here.
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Last edited by morozgrafix; 05-29-2008 at 01:05 AM.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 12:14 AM   #9
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Need help with Deflecto Calculations

Hello again,

I've been reading this forum and gaining more valuable information.
I need a suggestion on how to calculate Deflection in my situation.
All joists are 11" high solid wood in great condition with 5/8" tongue and groove plywood subfloor screwed on them.

There is a 5" support beam that goes right under the bathroom (bath is on 2nd floor, main living room under it) and then I have joists connected to it at 90 degree with 16" O.C. (ones that run horisontal in 2nd image) with span of 13' (red on the right and bottom of 2nd image are supporting exterior walls). First 2 from the bottom also supported by another wall below about a foot away from the beam. Rest of the joists run 13' span, some of them may be a double joist (2 sandwiched together).

5" support beam is spanned 15' between exterior wall and nearest support wall in the living room below. Then parallel to it i have four pairs of 1 1/2" thick joists (each pair is sandwiched to make 3" joist). From support beam the go like this 12", 16", 12" and 19" O.C.

We are thinking about installing 12"x26"x1/2" porcelain tiles made by Porcelanosa over Ditra with Nuheat mats below.
I'm a bit puzzled on how to calculate deflection, and should I install additional plywood layer before going with Nuheat mats and Ditra?
Shower will be Kerdi and I already layed another 5/8" plywood in that space. BathTub is already installed and I can't add any layer of plywood under it.

I'm attaching pictures (sorry about large size) and hope it would make it easier than my description.
Yellow - master bath walls
Green - joists under subfloor (joists and beam are longer but smallest span under bathroom floor is 15' until next supporting wall)
Red - support under joists (bottom and right are exterior walls)
Grey areas will not be tiled.





thanks,
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Last edited by morozgrafix; 06-03-2008 at 12:42 AM.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 01:02 PM   #10
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<<bump>>
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Unread 06-03-2008, 01:19 PM   #11
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Nobody's gonna be able to help you much without some idea of the depth of those joists you're dealing with, Sergey.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 02:08 PM   #12
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I think you said the joists were 11" deep, and I assumed the same for the 5" beam. Taking all the fat out of the Deflecto's calculation and using Douglas Fir for yoru sood species, I figure you have L/348 in that beam. Unless it's made of some lesser species of wood, I'd say it's good enough.

The other joists will be better than L/360.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 03:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Nobody's gonna be able to help you much without some idea of the depth of those joists you're dealing with, Sergey.
CX: I thought I've put all dimensions in there, but here it is just in case:

Joists are 11" high (deep) x 1 1/2" thick, some of them doubled up (does it count as 3"?) and strongest beam is 11" x 5".
I'm assuming that they are Douglas Fir.

Bob and CX for input, When I ran Deflecto I have separated those joists into 2 sets.

for ones that shown horizontally in the image i had this outcome:
Code:
For joists that are SYP or Douglas Fir, in good condition, 11 inches tall,

1.5 inches wide, 16 inches on center, and 13 feet long between supports, the
 deflection calculated is 0.224 inches.

This translates to a deflection of L / 697.

Since the maximum deflection for tile is L / 360, and for natural stone is
 L / 720, your floor is rated for Ceramic tile, Congratulations!
and for ones that shown as green vertical lines parallel to big support beam i got following numbers:
Code:
For joists that are SYP or Douglas Fir, in good condition, 11 inches tall, 3
 inches wide, 16 inches on center, and 15 feet long between supports, the
 deflection calculated is 0.182 inches.

This translates to a deflection of L / 987.

Since the maximum deflection for tile is L / 360, and for natural stone is
 L / 720, your floor is rated for Ceramic tile or Natural stone,
 Congratulations!
So between those numbers I would go with smaller one L / 697, which is still above L / 360 suitable for ceramic tile.

Bob, how did you calculate L/348 - did you just count that 11" x 5" beam alone?

Main question is still remains, do I need to lay another layer of plywood or should I lay my Nuheat mats on top of existing 5/8" plywood?

Thank you all, for your help.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 04:43 PM   #14
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Dimensions might be there and I just missed it, Sergey. I only get to look at the site in bits and snatches whilst onna road in the wilds of New Mexico, these days.

I would not tile that floor without another layer of plywood, and for me it would be at least half-inch plywood. That's expecially true in that area where you have 19" joist spacing. Five-eighths is just not enough subfloor at all for some of us, even though membrane and CBU manufacturers are happy with it.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 06-03-2008, 05:27 PM   #15
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CX thanks for your advise. I think i forgot to put more support walls in the drawing near that 19" spacing. Actually there is a structural wall that runs somewhere under it. It was late last night when I have been sketching it up and I didn't get exact dimensions on that side (that side is kind of least of my worries).

With everything i build i tend to do some overkill on structural side of things. I guess it comes from fixing old wooden sailboats when I was younger, with those things overkill to make it stronger may end up saving your life when weather and sea are not cooperating.

I was leaning towards laying another layer of plywood throughout my bathroom, anyway. One thing is that I already mentioned that bathtub is already in place, and I'm not going to go through trouble yanking it out. Took me all day to put it in place and hook up all plumbing. It sits right over 11"x5" beam, which is the strongest of them all.

I will go with 1/2" thick plywood or maybe even 5/8" to cover entire floor area that is available now.

Will screws and construction grade adhesive do the job for that layer of plywood?

Thanks,

Sergey.
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