New way to get rid of toxic waste.

[JC]

http://www.chugoku-np.co.jp/abom/uran/index_e.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/prism/Mar97/iraq.html
http://www.epa.gov/NE/pr/2001/jul/010716.html

http://yosemite1.epa.gov/r1/npl_pad....0?OpenDocument

http://www.motherjones.com/total_cov..._check/du.html


And we are still bombing Irag to this very day with this stuff.

kinda makes me wanna puke.

[Edited by JC on 09-29-2001 at 06:25 PM]

[John Bridge]

I don't know a lot about DU, and it's apparent the writers of these articles don't either, so I'm not ready to puke.

I don't agree with a lot of the things we've done and are doing overseas, but I'm not ready to write off the United States as the great satin either.

I'll need some positive info on this, not just the rantings of a few rather obscure writers.

In times like these, throw out fifty percent of what you read or hear. Then try to filter the truth out of the half that's left. If you end up with 10 percent of the original that you believe, question it.

[flatfloor]

JC, John's right. Did you ever hear of propoganda, or P.R.? I'm not one of these people who say my child wouldn't do that, nor do I think we are as pure as the driven snow.

Don't forget the Iraqis have tons of money to spend on weapons and hire P.R people,(I gaurantee there is a US PR co on the Iraqi payroll someplace). Why doesn't it go to food and medicine where it's supposed to go?

[JC]

I understand the propaganda thing, but this stuff is well documented and documented by reputable sources also.
I did the research and only posted a couple of sources.
I did'nt post the long and drawn out .edu and .gov reports for the sake of not boring everyone.
I also did not post the Iraqi and middle east sites that have many sickining pictures of deformed babies.ugghh
If you notice one of the above links is from the EPA itself.
Nope guys this is not just propaganda and the Gulf war sickness and the Balken war sickness is a real fact, unfortunatly.
Do a search and you will find plenty of factual scientific reports

As far as a positive aspects your looking for John I really don't consider anything about this as positive, save the better armour penatrating abilty of Depleted Uranium that is. Even ten percent of this is bad enough.
I am not about to write off the good ole USA either but I am not going to sit back like a typical brainwashed couch potatoe and believe for one second we are Gods gift to the world and then wonder why someone would all of the sudden want to attack us after all the nice things we have done for everybody(anyone who thinks like that truely has no-clue as to what really goes on in the world). It is no coincidance that most Americans have never even heard about depleted uranium shells either..think about it.

Yes sir this war is not going to be the government controled pentagon media release, foriegn news blackouts and propaganda like previous wars and even the Gulf war was. There are just too many people connected to the rest of the world via the internet these days to do that. Although I have run across sites that were shut down by our government since and right before the attacks. not quite as bad as the Taliban simply banning the internet though.
We may be at war and I may have to fight myself but I still want to know the truth about what is going on.
I refrain from posting any more political links here though since this is not the place for it.

I know about depleted uranium projectiles, thanks to my brother in law, who served in the 1st Cav during the Iraqi episode. I'm very glad that we have 'em and the other guys didn't/don't.

Just about everything about those shells and the tanks that shoot them are classified. That's why most people don't know about them. Whenever one of the M1's was disabled , an MP detail secured the vehicle until it could be removed. Not even our own guys get to see the details of the armor and other classified stuff.

And that is as it should be.

[John Bridge]

This is as good a place as any. And I did not ask for positive aspects of the situation. There are no positives in this deal.

But . . . . in journalism there are a few basic rules that need to be followed if you're going to be taken seriously, and one of them is good sources. You can't just say the Pentagon admitted this or that. The Pentagon is an object. Somebody at the Pentagon who has a name would be a good source.

Anybody can spread shit. I ought to know, I've done it enough, myself.

Bad things happen in wars, JC. Bad things are perpetrated by all sides. I personally think we ought to get out of Iraq, and we never should have gotten into Bosnia or Somalia to begin with. But that doesn't make us bad. It just makes us a little dumb, maybe.

While you're recounting the bad things we've done, think about some of the good things too. For one thing, we've fostered democracy in just about every part of the world. We've damned near beat Communism. Isn't that worth something?

One more thing. Name me a private web site the government has forced to shut down. I just don't believe that shit.

[JC]

http://www.answering-christianity.co...violations.htm

http://www.rferl.org/nca/special/enemies.html

Kinda hard to get a Pentagon news release about this subject.. of course.
But I have a few dead links that were not dead a few weeks ago so I am tempted to believe it. Not to mention how many times ISP have been closed down.
Do you really think the FBI is going to let a neo-nazi organization run a web-site? What about other illegal sites..I can name a few cases I have heard over the years from illegal pornagraphy to hacker sites to pipe bomb tutorial sites..they have always shut down stuff they did not like.
Now what is the differance between that and any other alleged enemy of the state. If they don't like something it gets shut down, or better put the ISP either has to quit sponsering the site or face getting closed down.
I will do some digging for more data but don't expect a official news release on this one.

Ever here of Carnivore? Yea we did beat communism but now we are slowly turning into communist and with the terrorist scare we will be losing more of our freedoms, free speech is losing ground rapidly: http://www.rferl.org/nca/special/enemies.html

Separation of church and state is but a facade: http://www.njchq.org/Bush_religion_WJW.html

right to bear arms...goes without saying: http://www.mynra.com/default.sph/Ibn.class/portal

Privacy..read all about it: http://www.stopcarnivore.org/

To refresh the constitution and see how meaningless it really is : http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...lofrights.html

Bit by bit our freedoms are bieng taken away, and most of us will not even take any notice until drinking beer gets banned(oh wait it already was..see how long that lasted though).
If you look closely Russia right now has more freedoms than we do these days!.......oh the irony of it.

Not speading shit just presenting a differant view of things.

[Bud Cline]

JC: "If you look closely Russia right now has more freedoms than we do these days!......."

I have no intention of getting involved in this one but c'mon Jim, this statement needs some explanation.

Look closely? Look closely where, at what?

More freedoms? What are they?

[JC]

http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de:80/law/rs00000_.html

Russia is only comparently recently changed it's political stucture to a capitalist form and as such has not cuaght up with the west in many ways.
Here in the west we have people going to jail for not taking care of there pets.
We have kids taken off of us if a school teacher does'nt agree with how we raise our kids.
We can get arrested for disaplining our kids.
We have executions,they don't.
Deadbeat dads get thrown in jail even if they support there kids but don't have reciepts.
Everybody gets sued and fined for just about everything these days.
Our health system ONLY helps the rich in many cases poor people cannot get adequate health care.
Judges all around the country are implementing extreme punishments for crimes due to public out cry..certain crimes are at 'witchhunt' status while others the people get a slap on the wrist.
We have 'targeted DUI areas' and 'police check zones' that allow cops to pull you over for no reason and search your car.
There really is no such thing as innocent till proven guilty..it is actually the other way around in most cases.
Were I live cops even have hidden cameras at all the street corners and I have been stopped and searched for just riding around the block more than once.


In the quest to make this country safer and politcally correct many of our freedoms have been crushed.
The new capitalist Russia has not been around long enough to have all these 'refined laws' so it is more like this country used to be in the fifties..Remember when drunk driving was legal? And when you were free to raise a family any way you wanted to.
Now I can't speak from personal experience since I never been there but there laws are much more lax and the people I know there have plenty of freedom and are well informed at what goes on in the world , much more so than Americans are.
Hell, most Americans still think the KGB is the Russian secret service or that they have to eat dogs and have there homes raided all the time. In reality they have more privacy laws than we have these days, there mass media is forbidden slander or discredit individuals.
Like John said, beware of propaganda, and we were told many things during the cold war that was half-truths.

[JC]

Look Bud, they don't even have a mandatory 'closing time'

http://www.bravosolutions.com/nightclubs.htm

[Bud Cline]

Do you have any idea of the chaos that would exist in this country if all of your above mentions were allowed to go on unchecked?

What the hell you doin' drivin' around the same block twice anyway?

Sometimes Jim me thinks you exercise your right of poetic license.

I'll still take the USA over any other place on the planet even if the taller buildings won't stand up to an airliner impact at 450 mph.

Keep in mind for the complainers and mal-contents of this land, there are still boats and planes leaving these shores daily and one way tickets are cheap.

[JC]

Yea but it's hard to get sponsered and to work, many countires just want you if you are rich tourist. They don't want foriegn workers like me. I would love to travel if I could afford to.

Heres the plan: once the homestead is paid for I rent it and my other properties out for our for lets say $2000.00 a month, have it handeled by my buddies real estate management company for a small fee. Then travel around Asia,Africa,South America and other semi third world countries and only spend the equivalent of say $1000 to $1500 living in hotels and sitting on the beaches sucking down beer and eating lobster and playing pool under beach huts. All the while not working(cept for the occasional casino/resort tile job that is when I get bored). What ya think?

http://www.phuket.com/island/beaches.htm

[John Bridge]

Well, this thing has deveoped into too many issues to respond to, so I'll cherry pick one -- web sites. The simple fact that we can say anything we want to on this site alone impresses me. There is hardly another country where this can happen, including some of the so-called democratic countries.

Every country I know of has greater restraints on "speech" than we do in this country. My God, we've even come up with a category that's not spelled out in the Constitution -- "free expression."

In what other country would you feel safe standing on the corner and burning or mutilating the national flag?

In what other country can you publically call the president a dick head or worse without being detained?

Now, some of the instances of web site shut downs you mentioned are for illegal or even unconstitutional activity. One example is the bomb-making thing. This is something that directly threatens national security. It threatens lives.

On the other hand, if I want to say on this site that we ought to bomb someone, that's protected speech.

I don't go looking for skin head sites, but I'll bet if they have them, the government monitors them. Why would they want them shut down? And what stops the sites from moving offshore? And what stops me from running my own web server with any kind of site I want? Think about some of these things.

I think I'm done with this thread and I won't respond to it again. It's not because I want to stick my head in the sand. It's because I'm afraid if I say too much, the government will send the black helicopters to drop microwaves on my computer.

[JC]

The idea is not to discredit this country or bash it because it is a great country.
The idea is to be aware that it is an ongoing process to keep our freedoms and way of life and not take them for granted. For every lobbiest petitioning congress to take away our freedoms there is another group fighting for them. When incidents like this tragedy take place the scales tip dangerously.
Right now there is a proposed law before our congress and the U.K's congress for having a national ID card that will be assigned to everyone to have DNA and fingerprinting/backgound search/info on it and it will look like a credit card. Without it you won't be able to fly or purchase anything that can be dangerous like gasoline etc..
The FBI and local police now has the power(since this tragic event) to monitor(tap) anybody in this country ,using the software Carnivore,for 48 hours without having to get a court order.
Freedom is a fragile thing and without people standing up for what they believe in we would not have what we have.
It is an ongoing battle to preserve our freedoms and personally I am very concerned about this issue.
If this makes me un-American then so be it make fun of me if you want to.
But remember without concerned citizens we would not have any freedoms we take for granted.



oops forgot to throw in some token referances

http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/

http://www.carnivoreemail.com/carniv...tool962000.htm (pro-carnivore)
http://stopcarnivore.org/for_isps.htm (anti-carnivore)

http://www.aclu.org/features/f101698a.html (just how close we are to not having the right to free speech on this web site)

As far as the flag burning thing goes.. http://www.aclu.org/action/flag107.html

[Edited by JC on 09-30-2001 at 11:46 AM]