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Unread 09-19-2001, 09:53 AM   #1
keith mc
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what is the best way to repair cracks in grout in the corner of shower stall. what is the best way to prevent them in the first place. It seems to only be cracking where thr grout line is narrow.
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Unread 09-19-2001, 10:21 AM   #2
Bri
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Talking

#1 caulking

#2 caulking

Every inside corner HAS to be caulked.
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Unread 09-19-2001, 10:35 AM   #3
keith mc
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Do you mean that you do not grout the corners just caulk them or do you mean to grout and then caulk
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Unread 09-19-2001, 01:13 PM   #4
Bri
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Hi
Since you are repairing an existing shower, you can go right on top....make sure it's clean..no soap film...and dry. I like to caulk the corners before I grout...I'm not sure if it's any better, but it's one less trip back to the job site, since you can't caulk over wet grout. So I think either way is ok...as long as it get done...the corners will crack 99.9% of the time.

Brian
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Unread 09-19-2001, 04:45 PM   #5
John Bridge
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Well, this is one of the areas where I disagree with the current logic. I grout inside corners in showers. There, I said it. It's out in the open (again.)

IF hairline cracks develop, and if someone is worried about them, they can be caulked with clear silicone.

The joint between the shower floor and the shower walls will always develop a hairline crack because the floor is not attached to anything. I advise my customers to leave it alone. Plugging it up with caulking creates a wonderful area for mold to develop. Shower floors have to percolate, anyway. They need to breathe.

Once you caulk, you will caulk forever. Use it sparingly.

John (trying to avoid flying objects) Bridge

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Unread 09-19-2001, 05:40 PM   #6
cx
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In the forwhatit'sworth department:

My tile man is also a full mud boxes all the time person like John (ducking flying objects) Bridge. Every part of his showers is grouted the same as every other part. Probably get cracks between floor and wall (I can't honestly say that I've looked that closely) and they are treated as John indicates - don't do nothin'.

In fact, in fifteen years, don't no customer never axed me to do anything to any of my showers except pewt in the skylight that I tried to get them to do during construction.

C (ain't duckin' nothin') X
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Unread 09-19-2001, 06:05 PM   #7
Bri
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Wink

Well yeah..but you guys build showers like the pyramids...to last forever...what if Keiths shower is green board, or plywood, or even concrete board? Better to keep the water out don't you think? I mean ..could be mastic behind too.

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Unread 09-20-2001, 05:45 AM   #8
John Bridge
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Okay, if it's mastic, caulk it. Greenboard? Tear it out.
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Unread 09-20-2001, 07:07 AM   #9
keith mc
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The tile is a 6x6 set on rock board walls with thinset.Do not seem to be having any trouble with any thing except small cracks on the inside corners.
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Unread 09-20-2001, 08:21 AM   #10
Dave Gobis
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I caulk them before grouting. The caulk mushrooms out in the back that way. Have never had to go back on one done in that manner. Have gone back on lots of caulk over grout. Just my opinion. Did I post this before?
EXPANSION JOINTS ( Movement accommodation joints )

Vertical & Horizontal
Joint Design Essentials EJ171

Use these details for Control, Contraction, and Isolation joints.

Design: Expansion joints are essential for the success of most tile installations. Various methods require proper design and location of expansion joints as shown in Method EJ171 below.
Because of the limitless conditions and structural systems on which tile can be installed, the Architect, or Designer, shall show locations and details of expansion joints on project drawings.

It is not the intent of this guide to make expansion joint recommendations for specific projects. Architects must specify expansion joints and show location and details on the drawings.

Materials: Expansion joint sealants include silicone, urethane and polysulfide. Generally, urethane sealants are recommended for expansion joints on exterior vertical surfaces and for expansion joints on both exterior and interior horizontal tile surfaces. Because of their abrasion and penetration resistance, urethane sealants are recommended for expansion joints in tiled traffic areas.
Silicone sealants may be used in expansion joints on both exterior and interior vertical tile surfaces. One-part mildew-resistant silicone sealants are formulated with fungicide for sealing interior joints in ceramic tile showers, around tubs, sinks and plumbing fixtures.
Sealants are available in both single and multi-component formulations. Either formulation is generally suitable for expansion joints in tilework. Single-component sealants are furnished in
pre-packed cartridges, or other forms requiring no job-site mixing. Multi-component sealants require job-site rnixing, but cure faster than single-component counterparts, making them advantageous for traffic areas.
Sealants should comply with ASTM C920 as described below in Method EJ171, Materials.

NOTE: Preparation of openings left by the tile contractor and installation of back-up strip and sealant should be specified in the Caulking and Sealant section of the job specification.


(insert drawings)

Recommendations:
· interior — 24' to 36' in each direction.
· exterior — 12' to 16' in each direction.
· interior tilework exposed to direct sunlight or moisture — 12' to 16' in each direction.
· where tilework abuts restraining surfaces such as perimeter walls, dissimilar floors, curbs, columns, pipes, ceilings, and where changes occur in backing materials.
· all expansion, control, construction, cold and seismic joints in the structure should continue through the tilework including such joints at vertical surfaces.
· joints through tilework directly over structural joints must never be narrower than the structural joint.
Expansion Joint Width (Vertical & Horizontal):
· exterior (all tile) — minimum 3/8" for joints 12' on center, minimum 1/2" for joints 16' on center. Minimum widths must be increased 1/16" for each 15º F tile surface temperature change greater than 100º F between summer high and winter low. (Decks exposed to the sky in northern U.S.A. usually require 3/4" wide joints on 12' centers.)
· interior for quarry tile and paver tile — same as grout joint, but not less than 1/4".

· interior for ceramic mosaic tile and glazed wall tile — preferred not less than 1/4", but never less than 1/8".
Preparation:
· tile edges to which the sealant will bond must be clean and dry. Sanding or grinding of these edges is recommended to obtain optimum sealant bond.
· primer on these tile edges is mandatory when recommended by the sealant manufacturer. Care must be taken to keep primer off tile faces.
Materials:
· back-up strip shall be a flexible and compressible type of closed-cell foam polyethylene, butyl rubber, or open cell and closed cell polyurethane, rounded at surface to contact sealant, as shown in details above, and as recommended by sealant manufacturers. It must fit neatly into the joint without compacting and to such a height to allow a sealant depth of 1/2 the width of the joint. Sealant must not bond to the back-up material.
· suitable sealants include silicone, urethane, and polysulfide. Generally, urethane sealants are recommended for exterior vertical tile surfaces and both exterior and interior horizontal tile surfaces, including tiled traffic areas. Sealants in traffic areas require a Shore A hardness of 35 or greater.
· silicone sealants may be used on both exterior and interior vertical tile surfaces. Single component mildew-resistant silicone sealants are formulated with fungicide for sealing interior joints in ceramic tile showers, and around tubs, sinks and plumbing fixtures.
· use sealants complying with ASTM C920, which designates sealants according to Type, Grade, Class and Uses. The following are suitable for use in tile work.
· Type S — single-component sealant.
· Type M — multi-component sealant.
· Grade P — sealants for joints on horizontal surfaces.
· Grade NS — non-sagging sealants for joints in vertical surfaces.
· Class 25 and 12½ — identifies sealants which can withstand an increase and decrease of +/-25% or +/-12½% of joint width.
· Use T — use in joints subjected to pedestrian and vehicle traffic.
· Use NT — sealants for nontraffic exposures.
· Uses M and G — sealants that will remain adhered to mortar (M) and glass (G) are suitable for use with tilework.
· some sealants require edge priming. Consult manufacturer' s specifications.
· manufactured/pre-formed joint profiles are available. Consult manufacturer.



Cold Joints

(insert drawing)
Cold Joints:
· cold joints are formed primarily between slab pours where the size of a concrete slab may be too large to be poured at one time. The remainder of the slab would be poured at a later time forming a cold joint between the two sections. Such joints should be shown on architectural drawings.
· a cold joint becomes a weakened joint that upon movement will crack, permitting leakage or buckling and cracking of a tile floor set over the slab.
· some large slabs on grade are poured monolithically, then later saw cut at intervals providing control joints to allow for cracking at these weakened points.
Installation:
· expansion joints in tile should be located over all cold joints and saw-cut control joints.
· joints in tile and setting materials shall never be less than the width of the saw-cut control width. Preparation and installation shall be as required for expansion joints.
· to insure that location of joints in tile work align with existing joints in substrate, joints in tile work should be constructed during installation of mortar beds and/or tile, rather than saw-cutting joints after installation.
· keep expansion joint cavities open and free of dirt, debris, grout, mortar and setting materials.
· set compressible back-up strip when mortar is placed or utilize removable wood strip to provide space for back-up after mortar has cured.
· install sealant after tile work and grout is dry. Follow sealant manufacturer’s recommendations.
· refer to sealant section in ANSI tile installation specification.

NOTES: In very small rooms (less than 12’ wide) and also along the sides of narrow corridors (less than 12’) expansion joints may not be needed.

The performance requirements of certain special locations, such as exterior swimming pools, dairies, food plants, etc., may exceed the minimum requirements of the sealant specifications given above. Therefore, follow recommendations of experienced manufacturers as to specific sealants suitable in the job environment. In some severe environments a program for regular maintenance of sealant in joints may be required.

Architect must specify expansion joints and show location and details on drawings.

All specifications for ceramic tile installations must conform to local building codes, ordinances, trade practices and climatic conditions.


Ó 2001 Tile Council of America, Inc.











Copies of the Handbook for Ceramic Tile Installation are available for $3.00 plus $2.50 S&H from:
Tile Council of America
100 Clemson Research Blvd.
Anderson, SC. 29625
Phone 864-646-8453 Fax 864-646-2821
http://www.tileusa.com
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Unread 09-20-2001, 05:11 PM   #11
John Bridge
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Hey Dave,

Don't forget to tell us the cutoff date for your Dallas affair. Nothing's changed, eh?
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Unread 09-21-2001, 05:38 PM   #12
Dave Gobis
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I still need the file with that copy. I have a hard copy, they finished it last week. I will get it and post Monday or Tuesday. Everyone is gone for the weekend. They sent a mailing out. I did not forget your other disc request either.
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Unread 09-22-2001, 06:38 AM   #13
John Bridge
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I bought the disc. It works fine. I use the broken one you sent me as a beer coaster. It works fine too. I don't need another one.
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Unread 09-26-2001, 03:38 PM   #14
chip
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I'm stunned!!

What with all the Schluter lovers, I can't believe no one brought up my favorite products of theirs.

They offer an inside corner metal with a rubberized material that handles the movement and doesn't crack. They also have them for tub surrounds and no doubt for shower floors and wall joints.

What gives? You guys ever tried or seen these?

Chip

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Unread 09-26-2001, 03:44 PM   #15
John Bridge
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Who left the door open?
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