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Unread 11-01-2022, 07:29 PM   #16
Turbinator
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Hi guys, thanks for the healthy exchange. I'll re-align my terminology to roofing felt, thanks for the education.

I do think I detect the feeling of a wooden subfloor under the roofing felt and tar layer. I'll start ripping out that old felt soon, and will post the next status pic.

I don't think I'll need to heat anything up, but I'll see. Haven't tried to pull any of it up just yet.

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Unread 11-01-2022, 08:16 PM   #17
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Turby, have you taken out any drywall in the shower? It's hard to tell in the photos. That hot-mop pan should have extended up onto some blocking between studs (and on studs) for probably 6-10" (not sure what code is or was for that height) and it appears in the photos that drywall has covered that?? And then your solid-surface wall shower panels were atop the drywall?

Can you give a little more details on the drywall? Did it extend into the mud deck? One of your last pics even looks like there is drywall texture sprayed onto the tar waterproofing.

I think all of your assumptions are correct in Post #10.

Where in the Bay area are you? I'm in Sonoma County.
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Unread 11-01-2022, 09:34 PM   #18
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Hi John, thanks for asking additional clarifying questions. Here we go with some answers:

No drywall has been removed other than small chunks and crumbs that came out when I demo'ed the old cultured marble out of there. The builders used huge globs of adhesive on the backside of the cultured marble, so when I pried that stuff loose, sometimes chunks of drywall would come off with the panels.

Indeed, the hot mopped felt extends upwards from the floor up the wall studs. Pulling on some of it to peer behind the felt, it appears there are bare studs behind there, and there's also bare insulation directly behind the felt layer. We'll see all of that clearly soon after I get all the old felt layer out of there. The felt extends up about 8.5" to 9" from the floor up to meet the greenboard. The greenboard does not overlap much of the felt at all - at most maybe 1/2 inch or so, so no, the drywall in general is not covering the felt.

Yes the solid surface cultured marble panels were glued with adhesive to the drywall. Is that a generally acceptable construction method?

Onto your specific drywall questions. I'm presuming the mud deck would be the cement block I just removed that was under the shower pan. The drywall did not extend to the mud deck, no. Yes, it looks like there is drywall texture overspray present on the tarred felt.

Thanks for inputs in validating my assumptions in my prior post, regarding possible sources of leaks.

I'm in San Jose, btw.

Thanks again!
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Unread 11-05-2022, 09:17 PM   #19
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Weekend warrior update time. Was busy with work so I didn't get to touch the shower until today.


Above: So, you guys are smart. The black tar layer came off in big layers that peeled away. Looks like there were at least 3 layers soaked in what seems like black tar. I am starting to see wooden subfloor.


Above: This was the offending corner where I think water was getting downstairs and soaking the ceiling. I am pretty sure I see water damage on the wood here.


Above: The cast iron flange. I'm going to have to figure out how to get this out to replace it.


Above: Look about right for hot mopped felt layers?


Next thoughts:

Would y'alls advise that I take out the old sub floor too? Or maybe that's necessary in order to replace the flange.

Would y'alls also advise that all the old sheetrock be removed so I go down to the studs?

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Unread 11-06-2022, 09:01 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turby
Would y'alls advise that I take out the old sub floor too? Or maybe that's necessary in order to replace the flange.

Would y'alls also advise that all the old sheetrock be removed so I go down to the studs?
First, and most important, issue here is correcting your grammar, Turby! Y'all is already plural! Well, or singular, as the case may be. One does not properly add an S to y'all in any case! Y'all can mean just y'all, Turby, or y'all can mean everybody in the whole Granola State out there.

Might be easiest to remove the subfloor to get rid of the remainder of that hot-mop and remove and replace the drain. Might also be helpful to allow for determining what sort of drain pipe you're dealing with and to make whatever changes necessary to adapt whatever type of drain you intend for your new shower construction.

And yes, I'd want to remove the drywall from the shower area, regardless the type of waterproofing you intend to use for the new shower.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 11-06-2022, 09:02 AM   #21
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It's often easier to just gut to the studs and replace it all instead of trying to save-and-patch what is there. Since you have drywall in the shower now, and if you decide to keep it, your water proofing options are pretty much down to one; a water proof sheet membrane.

Regarding the floor and flange, it's hard to say. I think your course of action will be determined based on the condition of the plywood and how you intend to construct a new shower receptor (pan). If the plywood is water damaged you've got little choice, at least some of it will have to come out. If it is sound, and you intend to create a new receptor using deck mud, perhaps you can address the drain from the ceiling below.

Ain't the plural of y'all "all y'all"?
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Unread 11-06-2022, 09:20 AM   #22
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Thanks guys for the lesson on how to use y'all! Y'all are great!!

Ok - I am thinking same, probably best to take out all the existing sheet rock and the wood subfloor, and then build up again from there. That will take me some time, so my next update may not be for a few days.

Added this thought later -- the subfloor wood seems to be in decent shape. However, I don't really want to open up the ceiling downstairs more than I have to, I'd rather rip out the subfloor upstairs and start fresh. Feels like that's the more efficient path to take.

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Unread 11-12-2022, 07:58 AM   #23
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Latest progress - been busy but had time to get this far:



Most sheet rock in the shower area is removed. Going to start moving to the right to remove more cultured marble, then to explore what's going on in the built out support posts. Need to figure out if those are just cosmetic, or if they are structurally functional.

Am finding what appears to be some evidence of water damage in the subfloor OSB wood. That subfloor will be coming out but I'm keeping it in for now while the demolition continues; I need the current subfloor to act as a catch-all for the debris.

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Unread 11-12-2022, 09:13 AM   #24
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Sometimes the additional tear-out feels like you're going backwards, Turby, but it's still progress.
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Unread 11-23-2022, 03:40 AM   #25
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Hi everyone! Happy Thanksgiving week! Finally had enough time to make some more progress here. Pics update:


Above: All sheetrock in the immediate vicinity of the shower enclosure is now out - that took awhile and was sure messy!


Above: That massive shower dam is now removed. Nothing was inside. I couldn't see any real reason why they made it so large. It was hollow inside.


Above: Interior view of the shower enclosure area.


Above: View looking over the tub at the shower enclosure area.

Next steps - I plan on removing the cosmetic wooden shower enclosure structure. It does not appear these pieces of wood do anything to support any ceiling beams, and is purely cosmetic to create the shower area. I'd like to open up this area by removing the structure and planning an expansion of the shower size. That will be my next goal.

I am cross checking floorplans for the home that were filed with the local city planning office - I'm no structural engineer but I'll review as best as I can to make sure I'm not setting myself up for any danger here.

Anyone have any good tricks for removing linoleum from the wood subfloor? It's really stuck on there..

When I removed linoleum from my 1st floor, I used water to soak the old linoleum first, then scraped it up afterwards. That worked really well. I don't plan on soaking the linoleum on the 2nd floor as I don't want to introduce water damage the subfloor in the process.

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Unread 11-23-2022, 09:26 AM   #26
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Making good progress, Turby.

It is highly unlikely those two wood framed enclosure walls are load bearing. For them to be there would be headers above the openings (which you'd find once the plywood is removed), and evidence on the first floor under that enclosure in the form of walls or beams. Additionally, the top plates of those two walls would be in direct contact with the ceiling framing, from all the way over here it doesn't appears that they are not. A final clue is if the roof was framed using engineered trusses.

Linoleum is often installed over stapled down 1/4" sheet goods, like plywood or masonite. If yours is installed that way both layers need to come up so you probably don't need to try to remove the linoleum first. Be aware though that both layers might extend under baseboards, vanities, the loo, front edge of the tub, etc.
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Unread 11-28-2022, 12:39 PM   #27
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Thanks for the feedback about taking out the linoleum and underlying layer. Upon first inspection, it appears the linoleum is glued to some kind of particle board. I will do some Google research for tips on how to remove the top layer of subfloor.

Just want to ask - what if I focused on taking out the linoleum instead of trying to take out the first layer of subfloor? Is this a viable approach? What are the reasons to take it out, or are there good reasons to leave it in? I'm ok slowly taking out the linoleum, as labor intensive as it is.

Updated progress so far:



Both decorative arches removed now. I have a fairly clear view of the wooden shower structure, I will start focusing on taking down the supports etc next. As pointed out, none of this wooden shower enclosure structure appears to be attached to the trusses above the bath area. The setup appears to be a free standing configuration, for the most part.

It's taking a bit of time to take this shower apart, I am careful not to overdo the demolition so as not to cause collateral damage, plus I clean up my mess at the end of every daily session. This adds more time to the project, but it's a slow & steady pace that I'm happy with undertaking.

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Unread 11-28-2022, 02:50 PM   #28
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I am a fan of a surgical approach to demolition, Turby, helps avoid collateral damage.

If that's loose fill insulation I see, be ready for a whole mess of it when you take down that shower ceiling.
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Unread 11-28-2022, 03:04 PM   #29
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Thanks Dan, for the validation.

Yes I do believe that is loose fill insulation. Thanks for the fair warning! I will see how much I can remove in advance - maybe with a shop vac and another N95 face mask.

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Unread 11-28-2022, 10:11 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Upon first inspection, it appears the linoleum is glued to some kind of particle board. I will do some Google research for tips on how to remove the top layer of subfloor.
I had to deal with a similar situation during the demo process during my bathroom remodel. In my bathroom, I had a piece of vinyl flooring (... or could have been linoleum ) glued to a layer of 5/8" plywood (underlayment). Underneath the 5/8" plywood was another layer of plywood (subfloor)

Since my underlayent layer was only nailed/stapled to the subfloor layer, I used a circular saw to cut the vinyl flooring and underlayment layer into sections (blade depth set to about 1/32” shy of cutting into the plywood subfloor layer)...
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...and then removed the cut sections of floor with a couple of large pry bars.
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